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Strategy Frame Traps (In theory) Why do you guys get so upset when people poke out of frames?

EMPEROR PRYCE

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
Ok, so we all know what a frame trap is at this point. Atleast, in technical terms. I just feel a lot of people are missing the point and understanding the application of frame trapping.

For this discussion I'll bring a few other games into context, but for the most part I'll keep it MKX. For the TL;DR scroll to the bottom.

Why are people getting so upset at people poking out of plus frames? Is that not the idea? In theory, is a poke not what you want from your opponent? If a frame trap is executed correctly and the opponent tries to poke out, you should beat them and therefore get a full combo from it. Allowing a poke to get through means execution was botched and the blame falls on the player, not the opponent. It's the nature of frame trapping.

Now what if I told you frame Traps don't even really NEED plus frames to work? You'd call me crazy right? Let's take a look at USF4 (street fighter). Generally frame Traps work around punishing your opponent for trying to crouch tech, but everyone is different and some people don't mash crouch tech in between strings this makes it harder to frame trap them. Normally a strategy around this is to walk forward and bait a throw, on reaction they will crouch tech and you blow them up for it.

This doesn't need plus frames to work. Let's bring characters into the discussion. The player is Ken vs the opponent Ryu. After 1 round the Ken realizes the Ryu is quite defensive and grounded while cornered and tends not to throw fireballs in Kens sweep range, he also has teched every throw thus far. Now with this information, Ken can attempt to frame trap the Ryu player by using a normal to blow up his tech next time he approaches. If the Ryu is successful in his defense, he will poke out with his crouch tech. If the Ken is successful, he will frame trap Ryu and punish him for his grab tech attempt.

Ok let's take it back to MKX. Why are we so focused on staggering our strings if we don't expect the stagger to work and grant us a combo? Most strings used for staggering are negative on block. The idea is to make the opponent believe we are going to use a full string, and we continue our pressure if they are slow to react and respect us. Let's say they are slow to react and try poking out. Normally you will win and succeed in "frame trapping" them.

Now I could go on and on for days about this, but I'd rather hear everyone's opinion.

Why do people get SO UPSET when opponents poke out of frame Traps? It's what you want. If they succeed in poking out is that not your fault? I understand if it's online and laggy, but that becomes the netcode/Internet's fault, not the opponents.

Now everything I say is in theory and not fact, although I do understand what a frame trap is. I respect that my idea may be different than others and that is fine. Discuss away.


TL;DR: You want people to try and poke out your frame Traps right? Why get mad when they do and succeed? Is it not your fault for poor execution? Discuss.
 
Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
Its more annoying that the persons lack of matchup knowledge made them to decide to poke, and as a result of them not respecting it and your timing you get blown up.
 
EMPEROR PRYCE

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
Wigy said:
Its more annoying that the persons lack of matchup knowledge made them to decide to poke, and as a result of them not respecting it and your timing you get blown up.
Click to expand...
Idk I just don't think the fault should fall on the opponent. If they have a lack of match up knowledge then it'd still fall on you regardless. They succeeded in poking out because your timing was off. Match up knowledge or not it's still hour fault right?
 
Under_The_Mayo

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
It's called "making a read". When you frame trap someone, you expect them to respect and block, which opens up your 50/50 options and throws. So an opponent KNOWS that by respecting the frame trap, they are giving the ability to go for something other than your frame trap, so they try to poke out on a read.
 
Tony at Home

Tony at Home

Noob
Depends. When you're +2 and someone pokes out with a 6 frame poke that beats out your 11 frame mixup. That makes sense. That's a read. That's good strategy.

When you're +7 on block and someone pokes out with a 6 frame poke that beats your 11 frame mixup, that's a lag tactic. At that point, you aren't playing the game, you are playing the netcode. Where success depends only on having a connection the quality of a poor North Korean family's router.

So yeah, generally this is what people are talking about.
 
EntropicByDesign

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Frame traps aren't so cut and dry as 'if they can poke out its not a frame trap' . you can set a frame trap for specific normals.. The SFIV analogy works well here.. If I'm up against e.ryu and he has two bars, I know he's ITCHING to low.forward x fireball x FADC , and I read that he's going to try that, I might set a 'loose' trap, one that will let a jab through, but not his cr.mk. a jab being 3 frames and cr.mk being 7.

Why would you not set a a tighter trap? Well if you already did the same trap previously, your opponent may not be willing to test it a second time, but throwing out something with a little more opening may entice them to get on buttons, or a specific button, and catch them.

It should also be noted that some frame traps are automatically laid, based on whatever you just did. I may have tried to open you up, and failed, but improvised midstring with a different ender or link or whatever, to minimize your options.

In most cases, outside of playing newbs who just mash randomly, of someone successfully pokes out of your trap, I totally see being pissed, the same as if someone reads you like a book and really nails you because he knew exactly what you were going to do. It's always aggravating to have something you want to work, fail to do so.

Also, if it fails due to bullshit MKX netcode, rage and pure salt should be expected.
 
EMPEROR PRYCE

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
Tony at Home said:
Depends. When you're +2 and someone pokes out with a 6 frame poke that beats out your 11 frame mixup. That makes sense. That's a read. That's good strategy.

When you're +7 on block and someone pokes out with a 6 frame poke that beats your 11 frame mixup, that's a lag tactic. At that point, you aren't playing the game, you are playing the netcode. Where success depends only on having a connection the quality of a poor North Korean family's router.

So yeah, generally this is what people are talking about.
Click to expand...
We've seen this happen offline just as much as online. Regardless it still falls on the player for mistiming his frame trap. Now OBVIOUSLY its online and timing gets botched, but that doesn't mean your opponent should respect you just because lol.

I just think it's all silly. Putting blame for a mistake that was made by you on to someone else(I'm speaking in general) because it worked. If they poked and u succeed you get rewarded for a full combo. If they respect you continue pressure. If they poke and THEY succeed you they get out of pressure.

It happens offline and online
 
JJV Phoenix

JJV Phoenix

I'm not Vak goddamnit
It's understandable sometimes. If I condition an opponent with a +1/+2 string and they mash a button every time and get hit by my follow-up 6f starter into a relatively low damage mixup/chip situation, at some point "I should stop pressing buttons" should cross their mind if they have any reasonable knowledge of how these things work. If they've been hit by the +1 string into 6f 10/10 times and on the 11th I mix it up (like a 50/50 that can lead into a combo), and he's still pressing buttons, then that person is either extremely stupid or a genius for being immune to conditioning. Dealing with an opponent who's playing a very different game than you are is unbelievably frustrating at times.

Also - In my local group I play with one guy who believes any amount of +frames should be respected even if the gap in the setup is wide enough to be poked out of by the entire cast, and another that just plays disrespectful as hell. When Mr Respect has an execution error or hasn't conditioned anyone to respect his +1 on block pokes he gets pretty angry. Mr Disrespect thinks he's "finding gaps" when there's an execution error in the frame trap and thinks that gap is forever and always because he doesn't know/trust frame data; he will consistently attempt to poke out of all of them to the point where being opened up by the frame trap accounts for 90% of the 100% health he lost in that round/match. Their matches are entertaining af, as is the salt afterwards.
 
T

The Hex Man

Noob
JJV Phoenix said:
It's understandable sometimes. If I condition an opponent with a +1/+2 string and they mash a button every time and get hit by my follow-up 6f starter into a relatively low damage mixup/chip situation, at some point "I should stop pressing buttons" should cross their mind if they have any reasonable knowledge of how these things work. If they've been hit by the +1 string into 6f 10/10 times and on the 11th I mix it up (like a 50/50 that can lead into a combo), and he's still pressing buttons, then that person is either extremely stupid or a genius for being immune to conditioning. Dealing with an opponent who's playing a very different game than you are is unbelievably frustrating at times.

Also - In my local group I play with one guy who believes any amount of +frames should be respected even if the gap in the setup is wide enough to be poked out of by the entire cast, and another that just plays disrespectful as hell. When Mr Respect has an execution error or hasn't conditioned anyone to respect his +1 on block pokes he gets pretty angry. Mr Disrespect thinks he's "finding gaps" when there's an execution error in the frame trap and thinks that gap is forever and always because he doesn't know/trust frame data; he will consistently attempt to poke out of all of them to the point where being opened up by the frame trap accounts for 90% of the 100% health he lost in that round/match. Their matches are entertaining af, as is the salt afterwards.
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If the matches are anything like im picturing in my head its got to be super funny like charlie murphy laughing at prince when ask to play basketball funny
 
Kay___Jay

Kay___Jay

Noob
First, if an opponent illegally pokes out of my frame trap, it's my fault. It means I should've practiced my timings better or gone for a tighter frame trap.
Second - in my opinion - making things frame perfectly in MKX is much harder than in SF. Because of how long everything takes. It's really difficult to hit a 1-2 frame link after waiting for 40-50f of the previous move.
Third, safe armored reversals.
 
Yoaks

Yoaks

A spaceman
You also have Low profiling to consider. If Kenshi does s1 which is +2 on block and than go for a d1 which is 8 frames. I should beat out everything Mileena has that isn't armored. But then you remember her Roll low profiles under mids. Same goes for her d3 which low profiles.
 
4x4lo8o

4x4lo8o

Noob
This thread seems super disingenuous. Of course you're going to be annoyed if your opponent pokes out of something they shouldn't poke out of. Whether it's your fault or their fault or the netcodes fault it's frustrating. No one likes losing when they made the right read
 
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