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Flawless block concern, how to fix it?

trufenix

bye felicia
3 days is plenty of time to identify potential issues to the health of the game, especially when its so apparent.
Okay, but this isn't "the game" its a stress test, with three characters, that Boon has already posted on twitter is out of date and not representative of the real game. We still have NO IDEA what the MK11 meta is going to be like.
 

Burn2019

Noob
Okay, but this isn't "the game" its a stress test, with three characters, that Boon has already posted on twitter is out of date and not representative of the real game. We still have NO IDEA what the MK11 meta is going to be like.
Not representative of the real game? Don’t talk shit. Pretty sure I saw the characters, backgrounds, special moves and fighting from MK11 in the stress test.
 

Evil Canadian

G O K U
Elder God
Okay, but this isn't "the game" its a stress test, with three characters, that Boon has already posted on twitter is out of date and not representative of the real game. We still have NO IDEA what the MK11 meta is going to be like.
Its a universal mechanic, # of characters don't matter. We can only judge the game as we see it. With what we have seen, in its current state, any string with a gap in it will get you killed past week 1 of the game once the majority of people figure it out for effectively zero risk on the defenders side.
 

DixieFlatline78

Everyone Has A Path
They could just make it a push block like in Dragonball Fighterz. Or make it a specific input like Forward + Block that can be baited out much like Reflect. Or set it so you can only Flawless Block the first attack in the string
 

trufenix

bye felicia
Its a universal mechanic, # of characters don't matter. We can only judge the game as we see it. With what we have seen, in its current state, any string with a gap in it will get you killed past week 1 of the game once the majority of people figure it out for effectively zero risk on the defenders side.
And like I said, if you think you're just going to FIX it with suggestions based on a 3 man stress test, you're delusional. We need to see the whole game, we need to PLAY MATCHES we need to UNDERSTAND THE META. Then we need to tell NRS whats fucked with actual meaningful data and how to fix it.

Not just MK9 this shit with patches two months before release because we don't like ducking Kano's knives again.
 

Evil Canadian

G O K U
Elder God
And like I said, if you think you're just going to FIX it with suggestions based on a 3 man stress test, you're delusional. We need to see the whole game, we need to PLAY MATCHES we need to UNDERSTAND THE META. Then we need to tell NRS whats fucked with actual meaningful data and how to fix it.
I understand the meta perfectly, its gonna be O/S perfect block on every string with a gap to punish it for zero risk. If it doesn't change, I will abuse this as hard as I can all the time and it will give me easy wins and eventually force my opponents to stop using a good chunk of their moveset. That is what not addressing it will lead to.
 

Evil Canadian

G O K U
Elder God
This isn't the arcades back in the 90s, people dissect shit at lightning speed nowadays. Its not an option of finding the counterplay, because there is none. It works in a certain way, that's it, and its zero consequence or risk to pull off. Doesn't matter how many times you wanna write a certain number of characters or days the stress test lasted it doesn't change these facts.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
This isn't the arcades back in the 90s, people dissect shit at lightning speed nowadays. Its not an option of finding the counterplay, because there is none. It works in a certain way, that's it, and its zero consequence or risk to pull off. Doesn't matter how many times you wanna write a certain number of characters or days the stress test lasted it doesn't change these facts.
Ok since you guys have experience with this from other games, why wouldn't canceling the string with a gap into something different blow up the flawless block attempt?
 

Evil Canadian

G O K U
Elder God
Ok since you guys have experience with this from other games, why wouldn't canceling the string with a gap into something different blow up the flawless block attempt?
Cause you are still blocking, the up+2 flawless launch is covered up by your block. Special Canceling the string into something else probably means you did something punishable on block in their face to boot making it even worse. I guess There's a small chance you could rando catch it in the off-frame you are feathering block but you are basically opening yourself up to an even bigger punish situation to begin with.

Anyways the ez fix is you can't flawless block for XYZ frames after you have already blocked a move. Lets the mechanic work the way it was intended for hard reads/neutral shit/blocking jumps and fireballs and the like, while not letting you OS strings with gaps.
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
I think flawless blocking should just completely negate chip damage and nothing else. This way we can still have death by chip damage, keeping a staple mechanic while having a way to negate it with a new one.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Cause you are still blocking, the up+2 flawless launch is covered up by your block. Special Canceling the string into something else probably means you did something punishable on block in their face to boot making it even worse. I guess There's a small chance you could rando catch it in the off-frame you are feathering block but you are basically opening yourself up to an even bigger punish situation to begin with.

Anyways the ez fix is you can't flawless block for XYZ frames after you have already blocked a move. Lets the mechanic work the way it was intended for hard reads/neutral shit/blocking jumps and fireballs and the like, while not letting you OS strings with gaps.
Fair enough.

The other point of thinking a 3-character build is enough is maybe most of the characters don't have gaps everywhere like the couple of characters we saw this weekend. Perhaps those characters are supposed to be weak against flawless block so they don't abuse plus frames constantly. That would be one example how a small build isn't enough to judge a whole game mechanic.
 

Rearawt

Apprentice
I think I need help understanding what the big deal is.

Blockstrings with gaps in them can get you blown up? Then don't finish them, stop before the gap.

Anyways the ez fix is you can't flawless block for XYZ frames after you have already blocked a move. Lets the mechanic work the way it was intended for hard reads/neutral shit/blocking jumps and fireballs and the like, while not letting you OS strings with gaps
What's the point in having gaps in strings if you do that?
 

Evil Canadian

G O K U
Elder God
I think I need help understanding what the big deal is.

Blockstrings with gaps in them can get you blown up? Then don't finish them, stop before the gap.
2 issues with that

1) You will always have to not finish them against someone who is doing the OS. You simply won't be allowed to finish the string without getting killed. You have lost the ability to use the string on block basically.

2) You still ended your string and are standing negative in their face, so its not like you win anything. All they had to do is block.
 

Corruption100

Plus Frame Enjoyer
I'm not a fan of asking for things before the launch of the game. Idc how broken. I've seen results of buffing/nerfing things too early in games and we should really wait til a month after launch when meta is more formed. It's fine to be concerned but you never know how the final build will play.
 

Rearawt

Apprentice
2 issues with that

1) You will always have to not finish them against someone who is doing the OS. You simply won't be allowed to finish the string without getting killed. You have lost the ability to use the string on block basically.

2) You still ended your string and are standing negative in their face, so its not like you win anything. All they had to do is block.
Right, but they're blocking and pressing buttons trying to do the OS, expecting the rest of the string. If you don't finish it, don't you essentially end up in neutral? Even if you're negative, you're probably safe from being punished, no?
 
In its current state I do not think there is anyway that it can stay. My guess is that it is designed to more quickly advance on zoning, avoid chip and to punish slowing advancing normals in higher level play. I do not think it was designed to option select/p link blk u+2 mashing in strings.

possible solutions? remove the u2 launcher, require a player to wait 5-6 frames btw blocking for perfect block to work again.

Even if the u2 launcher is gone, it will only be a few months before top players are mashing the block and punishing with a 6 frame normal. At least this would require more execution.

I am not sure, this is a tough fix. I do not think the move is functioning as intended though.
 

kcd117

Kombatant
I loved the flawless block but I do think it needs to be toned down a bit. As I see, the purpose of the mechanic should be to deny + frames and punish virtually safe gaps, specials, and strings. But the difference between flawless block frame adv and regular block frame adv should not be as big as it was in this beta where you had + frames being full combo punished. It should only eat out 2-4 frames of recovery from the move you block, and only u3 should be able to be used as a reversal, this way you can contest pressure and punish some safeish moves without making the mechanic completely out of control.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
I realize it was technically a stress test and not part of the actual Beta....but come the fuck on people, Beta is exactly the time to bring up issues. Stop trying to shut down discourse if it's critical to the current state of the game as we've seen it. That's literally one of the primary features of pre game demos like this.
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
In its current state I do not think there is anyway that it can stay. My guess is that it is designed to more quickly advance on zoning, avoid chip and to punish slowing advancing normals in higher level play. I do not think it was designed to option select/p link blk u+2 mashing in strings.

possible solutions? remove the u2 launcher, require a player to wait 5-6 frames btw blocking for perfect block to work again.

Even if the u2 launcher is gone, it will only be a few months before top players are mashing the block and punishing with a 6 frame normal. At least this would require more execution.

I am not sure, this is a tough fix. I do not think the move is functioning as intended though.
Which is a shame, since it's such a good feature to have in the game.
 

PapaRegadetho

All hail emperor Liucifer Kang!
3 days is plenty of time to identify potential issues to the health of the game, especially when its so apparent.
Apparent to what exactly? To me the only apparent thing here is that people want to fix a mechanic thats not broken, but disliked. I dont know whats going on with modern mentality with fighting game players trying to make defensive options as bad as posssible. Don't overcommit your string if you know you're gonna get parried and blown up. You're supposed to be afraid to press buttons, thats what it means to play footsies in an footsie-based game. Its clear that the developer wants the game to be slow and methodic as possible.