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Flawless block concern, how to fix it?

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
So while we all love the mechanic there is no denying that so far it seems too good, i've been testing this with a 2D MK game been working on for a while now and the flawless block isn't a new concept to me either, and came across issues of perfect frame because it used to happen all the time as well, and after hearing Reo and M2dave's podcast i though maybe we could come up with an open discussion on suggestions to fix this issue.


Before anything else, i say that the 2D MK game i implemented this on, i moved the parry of perfect frame to not be available on the first frame, but down the end after 3 or 4 frames within the initial guard animation there is 2 frames window where a move can be perfectly blocked, i did this because when experimenting people where waking up guarding and meaty attacks were imediately perfect guarded, and told the game to not active as if block is held as one is standing up, so now even if guards are mashed you never get to the animation unless you actually guard so there is no option selecting with mashing or waking up into it, of course i didn't add follow ups to it neither i added faster recovery if succeded to the follow-up concept its something to code and test further in the future.

Basically in MK 2D i was recreating, the guard is made of 3 states, one its the initial guarding time which still allows you to guard while the guard is starting and the perfect guard algorithim only presents itself in the final part of this animation usualy after 3 or 4 frames of its initial startup and stays only active for 2 or 3 frames, and when this animaton ends, if the player is holding guard, then it moves to a state where they are holding the guard, in this particular state there is no algorithim of perfect blocks, and by release it takes around 3 or 2 game ticks to come out of the block animation completly.


While this seemed to solve the problem, on some player vs player testing it felt much harder to get the perfect guard and sometimes out of fear we would ocassionally getting, needs more testing...
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Moving away, i've reading some suggestions of the community and there are strong demands to move it away to a flip stance.
Maybe whatever they do give it an animation to parry it and then a recovery for it as well so people can bait it, i don't see nothing wrong with it, namco uses the same principle for Jins parry and it goes this way.
F0~1 block (So if done way too earlier he doesn't parry but he blocks it)
F2~8 parries (This is where the magic happens)
F9~18 block (If punished too earlier he guards)
F19~30 vulnerable (this is where you can launch him for mashing parries)
F31~ finished (doesn't get punished and returns to neutral)

But so far there has been a lot of suggestions to it so i was kinda wondering what you guys think?

The main idea to prevent mashing should be, anyone should be able to guard it on the very first 3 available frames of a guard, and remain active for only 2 or 3 frames so you can't mash to get it right.
 
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DragonofDadashov24

Let’s see whose fire burns hotter
It’s too good to be in the game. Instant launch, even though being hard to perform, is definitely gonna make a lot of people salty. I’ve seen Ketchup perform instant launch into 32% kombo with baraka. Two launches like that and one clean Fatal Blow ( i think everyone lands their FB) is a win.
Perfect block nullifies chip damage so mid projectiles won’t be a problem once people learn doing pb reflexively ( is that a word?).
Also Mustard said you’ve got about a frame or two to perform the launch, cause after that it can be blocked ( and probably punished).
I’m a scrub so everythink I say can be ignored by everyone though.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
SonicFox said that he can fuzzy block OS the gap at absolutely no risk. How it this possible? By mashing or what i dont get it at all.
On Reo's podcast i've heard they saying ppl were mashing it, so if they are its because its available on the first 3 frames, so it means every time they mash guard at every 3 frames of the initial animation they are on the perfect block stance, meaning all the time.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
When I said justguard has been unsuccessful in sc5 everyone was acting like they know better. Again.
I was right. Again.

Start listening to me.

On paper it's a fun concept, but it turns the concept of fighting games upside down.
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
I think eliminate the flawless block into u2 option and leave the u3 option (and maybe even roll option, which I'm not sure if it's in). Or simply leave flawless block as a way of blocking while eating reduced chip and be at slightly less disadvantage on block, nothing else.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I think eliminate the flawless block into u2 option and leave the u3 option (and maybe even roll option, which I'm not sure if it's in). Or simply leave flawless block as a way of blocking while eating reduced chip and be at slightly less disadvantage on block, nothing else.
follow ups so far are too good, but i'm more concerned with the mashing to get it, that definitely should be adressed as soon as possible.

Also Reo's suggestion of U2 from FB takes all 4 bars isn't a terrible idea
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
I say find a foolproof way to eliminate mashing it, make it require practice and reads and further remove the capability to launch on Flawless Block OS completely.
In my mind I see launching from flawless block bypassing neutral Tool or a"Fuck Neutral Tool" as the podcast so eloquently put it.

I'm fine with it just being a counter to otherwise strong normals and tools like the very strong JIKs. If it only gets 15% max on punish then I don't see it as a OP tool. This way it's not a fatal tool and let's players go back to footsie game instead of being punished hard for using your characters best strings.

BTW Eddy that idea you have seems solid but maybe we can test it further to see what comes of it and make sure there is no backdoor workarounds or input shortcuts for FB.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
after been thinking for a while, i think the most plausible solution its to move away the flawless block frames from the first 3 frames of the block animation and add it on the 3 frames before the hold guard state kicks in.

And to further enforce its precision and punishing people for mashing it, disables its funcionality for 3 to 5 seconds if one is constantly mashing guards to option select and get the frames.

That would make flawless block an actual something worth training its timing rather than trying to mash through with Option selects.

Also U2 should definitely take at least 2 bars of offense meter.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
How would that stop players mashing block to trick the system into thinking they Flawless Blocked?
from my own experience playing it i don't think that's that much of an issue but if it is just add in a 'lockout' period (maybe 1/2 second) after every block.
i think the real issue is it makes you scared to attack because technically any button you press up close is full combo punishable
 

Krankk

Smoke & Noob & Rain
This might be a really dumb idea, since I lack the FG experience and can only go from other genres:

What if blocking had an internal cooldown of just a couple of frames? That way you couldn't spam-mash block to get Flawless Blocks. That way you would have to actually time your Flawless Blocks, but it wouldn't affect your regular blocking, which you commit to by holding the block button. And it wouldn't affect regular strings and their frames, since again - it would only trigger after the first block. Usually enough frames pass to avoid the internal cooldown causing issues for your next block. And I think strings which you would want to Flawless Block would still have enough frames in between for you to Flawless Block them on time.

Can all of this be compared to SF Third Strikes Parry? There is this legendary clip, where Daigo full parrys Justin Wongs Chun Li kicks and then beats him. Probably the hypest EVO moment ever. But that parry can be achieved with regular button mashing. So on the surface it's not that impressive.
 

xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
or just make flawless block to be used only during a pretty short 2 frames window after releasing the block button, and you can use only 2 or 3 per match .... just make this thing more harder to be used, to avoid abuse (button masher tactics).
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
This might be a really dumb idea, since I lack the FG experience and can only go from other genres:

What if blocking had an internal cooldown of just a couple of frames? That way you couldn't spam-mash block to get Flawless Blocks. That way you would have to actually time your Flawless Blocks, but it wouldn't affect your regular blocking, which you commit to by holding the block button. And it wouldn't affect regular strings and their frames, since again - it would only trigger after the first block. Usually enough frames pass to avoid the internal cooldown causing issues for your next block. And I think strings which you would want to Flawless Block would still have enough frames in between for you to Flawless Block them on time.

Can all of this be compared to SF Third Strikes Parry? There is this legendary clip, where Daigo full parrys Justin Wongs Chun Li kicks and then beats him. Probably the hypest EVO moment ever. But that parry can be achieved with regular button mashing. So on the surface it's not that impressive.
or just make flawless block to be used only during a pretty short 2 frames window after releasing the block button, and you can use only 2 or 3 per match .... just make this thing more harder to be used, to avoid abuse (button masher tactics).

I think a cool down is needed if one is mashing, but it shouldn't really be on the first 3 available frames, it should be on the last 3 of the first 6 frames animation instead, that with the cooldown if mashed should definitely work without the needing of option selecting or mashing to get one or the other.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
On Reo's podcast i've heard they saying ppl were mashing it, so if they are its because its available on the first 3 frames, so it means every time they mash guard at every 3 frames of the initial animation they are on the perfect block stance, meaning all the time.
To mash block every 3 frames it means you're pressing block TWENTY FUCKING TIMES PER SECOND

Absolutely no one in this world can do that.
 

Sage Leviathan

I'm platinum mad!
What if flawless block u2s scaled more heavily?
Or if they costed more meter?

This is obviously a worrying thing. I really love the idea of flawless blocks being used to interrupt and punish gaps, but at the moment it appears to be too strong a mechanic. By too strong, I simply mean that the reward obtained from doing so far outweighs the risk of simply being hit and messing up.

In fact, there's almost no real punishment for messing up a flawless block.
 

Eldagrin

Add me on PS4 if you want to play some games
Just Guards were bad in SCV and if they continue to lead into a launcher in MK11 they should just be changed to negate chip, it’s what just guarding does in SC6 now and the mechanic is now just useful rather than overbearing. Something safe or + becoming launch punishable because you “flawless blocked” is not great to me.

At the very least it should be changed to just lead into the invincible wake up rather than the launcher.
 

PapaRegadetho

All hail emperor Liucifer Kang!
3 days. Three days. THREE DAYS. Thats how long people got their hands on the game and already asking for changes for a game that was deveopled for years. Wait for the whole game, play the game for at least a month, THEN we can actually discuss matters of how to better the game.
 

Evil Canadian

G O K U
Elder God
3 days. Three days. THREE DAYS. Thats how long people got their hands on the game and already asking for changes for a game that was deveopled for years. Wait for the whole game, play the game for at least a month, THEN we can actually discuss matters of how to better the game.
3 days is plenty of time to identify potential issues to the health of the game, especially when its so apparent.