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Fishy Frame Data Test - 2 Testers needed.

UsedForGlue

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Can anyone who really knows there stuff please test this with a friend as I have no way of doing this offline, i have no mates who play this game offline.

There are a few things I am skeptical of in cages advantage and block pressure and no matter how well I read and react, I still get mixed results on random occurrences.

All these are based on online play, so I need these verified offline or I a, going to lose my mind as I fight cage every god dam day and nothing ever becomes clearer, the more I play it or understand the frame data, these scenarios keep throwing up inconsistent results.

I have reviewed these scenarios theoretically and even though I am sure of the math, it never works ou or adds up in actuall game play.

SCENARIO 1:
Cage pressing with F32 which is 0 on block, but somehow, beats out my 6 frame d1's with his D1, granted that could be all a matter of 1 frame difference in reaction between me and my opponent, but...
The problem is even when I block his D1 after f32, he is supposed be -13 on block, yet i can't punish him for it, and most often I will get crushed with a F3 which is 9 frames for trying to counter his d1, I will remind you, he's -13 after his d1.

SCENARIO 2:
I block a F3, or 21 or 11 and await a d3, I block cages D3, and whilst in crouch position, I try to counter with a D3, Cage is suppose to be -7 on block, and I Still RANDOMLY eat a f3 which is at 9 frames, making it 16 Frames to start another non-hit confirmed rush down with F3, yet il eat the F3 for doing a 6/7 frame D1 or D3.

SCENARIO 3:
I block a F4, which is 0 on block, and when I go to D1, i eat a b3 which is an 11 frame start up or even gayer a f3 will crush it, I will remind you, it's 9 Frames. Could it be animation of the B3? Maybe, but how does tht explain the f3? Does it randomly crush pokes even when behind in advantage by 3/4 frames?

SCENARIO 4:
In the corner, I block F33B3 which is 0 on block, and I cannot counter with a d1 or d3 which are 6/7 frames before I get smashed in with another F3, which is 9 frames, so again, does this randomly crush pokes even when it's not at advantage? I will also mention that I cannot jump at all to escape.

Please try to provide tested answers as these scenarios constantly crop up yet vary in the out put each time. Hopefully it's only down to online in even the best connections.

Thank you for your help. I'm sick of this.
 
GNG Iniquity

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
Yeah, I've been wondering about JC's strings being random for a while now on standing opponents...I don't think that possibility is too far to rule out. I don't even try to punish him online anymore, I know that I'm just going to be put right back into it.
 
Crathen

Crathen

Death is my business
UsedForGlue said:
SCENARIO 1:
Cage pressing with F32 which is 0 on block, but somehow, beats out my 6 frame d1's with his D1, granted that could be all a matter of 1 frame difference in reaction between me and my opponent, but...
The problem is even when I block his D1 after f32, he is supposed be -13 on block, yet i can't punish him for it, and most often I will get crushed with a F3 which is 9 frames for trying to counter his d1, I will remind you, he's -13 after his d1.



Please try to provide tested answers as these scenarios constantly crop up yet vary in the out put each time. Hopefully it's only down to online in even the best connections.

Thank you for your help. I'm sick of this.
Click to expand...
1: so we know f32 is 0 on block but the thing about it it that you have to release block as soon you see the 2 come out and commit to a perfectly timed d1 and even the game will decide the trade randomly ( because both hits connect in the same frame ) , so you also can be beaten by a followup from f32 xx flipkick ( yeah stupidly risky but effective ) , if you commit to blocking a d1 you're just in a throw/attack mixup and it's mostly followed with f3 wich puts you in the same situation and if you were blocking low now you could be victim of the random frame advantage bug , if you block high you he may start either f33 / f3 / d3 / f33 ex forceball and 21 with all lead to other frametraps wich needs commitment to get out of and he still has mixups to make you block low looping the situation , now if you block a d1 you can punish it but you NEED a fast special mid WITH RANGE because the blocked d1 actually does push you back where your d1 ( or special mid ) will miss and his d1 / f3 connect looping again the situation . if your character doesn't have it then you are in big trouble if JC gets in.

I will write the other scenarios later cause i gotta go to bed , my sparring partner is a day 1 Johnny Cage mainer and i know everything about his guessing / spacing game and i can assure you that it's fucked up and your pains are legit , he's without the shadow of a doubt the best rushdown character in the game not in a single way comparable to the pressure that character like Kabal or Sonya apply.
 
Dizzy

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Scenario 4 is trap. It works on everyone but Kitana, if you d1 here it will whiff and you'll get blown up by F3. Don't D1 after blocking this. You certainly can jump.

Scenario 1-3 is you letting go of block too late or pressing the button too late, or both. Keep in mind D1 have low blockstun (I know some have 1 frame, not sure about all). You can't rely on reactions in all situations, you have to commit to a guess. However, you can D1 out of all of those in Scenario 1-3.

Everything will lose to F3 if its done too late.
 
Konqrr

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Also, check your TV for delay. I have a laggy TV downstairs and it makes practice mode feel like online when I use it.
 
UsedForGlue

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Dizzy said:
Scenario 4 is trap. You certainly can jump.
Click to expand...
Can someone please confirm this as my initial thread was telling how I am skeptical of these scenarios and no matter what, they produce random results each time, and jumping in scenario 4 is also one of them, I almost every single time, get caught by another F3 as I jump, even thought I asked the Cage player to repeat this over and over, so guessing wouldn't be an option, and would eliminate a late reaction from me.
 
UsedForGlue

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Konqrr said:
Also, check your TV for delay. I have a laggy TV downstairs and it makes practice mode feel like online when I use it.
Click to expand...
It's fine Konqrr, I can relay on all my other punishes, jumping back out of Shangs Skull trap after a blocked D3, or poking him if he tries to reapeat a string without hit confirming D3, D3'ing KL after his D3 is not hit confirmed, etc. But when it comes to these Cage scenarios, nothing ever works out, no matter how times I read and guess the scenario correctly. And the Blocked D1 being at -16, I still get my D1 crushed by a F3 even though I know its coming, specifically after F32 on block.
 
UsedForGlue

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Crathen said:
1: so we know f32 is 0 on block but the thing about it it that you have to release block as soon you see the 2 come out and commit to a perfectly timed d1 and even the game will decide the trade randomly
Click to expand...
Thanks for the feedback, but again, I understand how to punish. But my concern is that Cage may not be right, and no one has ever thought to question it, for many reasons, either you will be told with absolute certainty that you are complaining or ''You don't know how to fight cage''.

I know how to fight Cage I have fought him a million times, and the results of certain block strings vary, ever time, and these scenarios, even though predicted, still consistently throw up many mixed results.

Again, I hope it's down to online.

And I also would like to people who don't main JC to drop their opinion, as allot of Cage players don't even understand where he is at advantage or what normal to use after being granted advantage, they just mash. I even see people D4/D3 the opponent after landing a nut punch.
 
smokey

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Scenario 1 ive been testing recently, theres no blockstun on a blocked down poke, so you can release block and punish it as soon as the hit connects, but 13/60ths of a second isnt enough time to react to the hit, let go of block, and get a frame perfect punish out, but if you have some sort of inhuman ability to do it consistantly i would love to hear about it because i have only been able to punish blocked pokes when i see them coming, and that was in a set up situation where i had my friend d1 on block, and i would try to punish each one before he could duck block and punish my d1, also trying to practice it consitantly, and it was still hard for both of us to beat the -13 with any consistancy.

Its the same sort of thing as blocking sektors en telepunch and trying to punish it before he hits the ground, its not really possible unless executed frame perfectly, and you have to let go of block on the frame that he hits your block.

Hope this helped !
 
16 Bit

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Offline I am always able to consistently punish a blocked JC d+1 and counter poke after a blocked d+3. Sounds like it's just online.
 
UsedForGlue

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
smokey said:
Scenario 1 ive been testing recently, theres no blockstun on a blocked down poke, so you can release block and punish it as soon as the hit connects, but 13/60ths of a second isnt enough time to react to the hit, let go of block, and get a frame perfect punish out, but if you have some sort of inhuman ability to do it consistantly i would love to hear about it because i have only been able to punish blocked pokes when i see them coming, and that was in a set up situation where i had my friend d1 on block, and i would try to punish each one before he could duck block and punish my d1, also trying to practice it consitantly, and it was still hard for both of us to beat the -13 with any consistancy.

Its the same sort of thing as blocking sektors en telepunch and trying to punish it before he hits the ground, its not really possible unless executed frame perfectly, and you have to let go of block on the frame that he hits your block.

Hope this helped !
Click to expand...
Again, I understand. But no one appears to have actually taken seriously what I am saying. If the block stun in this game hinders and even contaminates the frame advantage, then how can you consistently relay on anything. If D1 is -16, it should be -16.
 
16 Bit

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Online I get blown up for trying to counter poke after a blocked d+3 all the time, against everyone not just Cage. Besides the jump ins it's the most obnoxious lag strat.
 
smokey

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
UsedForGlue said:
Again, I understand. But no one appears to have actually taken seriously what I am saying. If the block stun in this game hinders and even contaminates the frame advantage, then how can you consistently relay on anything. If D1 is -16, it should be -16.
Click to expand...
Theres zero frames of block stun on a d1, you have 16 frames after that d1 hits you to let go of block and do something.
The time it takes you to react, let go of block, execute a move, and have the moves hitbox collide with the hurtbox of the opponent has to be from the frame that the d1 strikes your block, so in any realistic human situation is very very improbable.

16/60 = 0.266 seconds. If you can do anything in that time you sir are on the verge of being in-human.
 
M

mekane

Noob
i saw Dizzy uses 2 pressure a lot (it was in the corner now that i think about it), does this catch a perfectly timed jump out? or should i just be using 1 and f3 starters only.
 
crosstalk

crosstalk

Noob
mekane said:
even after a 1,1,f1 (+2 frames) my opponent seems to be able to jump out of a follow up f3
Click to expand...
Perhaps you're not fast enough. If they jump, the f3 should be able to catch them. As for 2, I like to mainly use it for throw setups, but it can definitely anti-air any jump attempts too. Personally I like to stick with f3 pressure in the corner, and 1 if I think they're going to try to jump.
 
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