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Fighting games need more randomness

Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Fighting games are already huge, just look at the release for MKX. The part about them that isn't big is the competitive scene. But making the game more random wouldn't change that, in fact it would mean the competitive scene would die off. No one wants to win or lose to stuff that is truly random, as that takes the skill out of the equation.

Smash does everything you just described but turns off all of it for competitive play, for good reason.
 
B

Bizzle PB

Noob
I have been saying this for years. I am a poker room director in Florida and often times I dream about a time when players will show up day in and day out to compete at a video game. The reason why it works for poker and not video games is luck. A bad poker player can win eith a little luck, even against a far superior opponent. That is what keeps the bad player coming back. Myes there is enough edge for the good player to eventually take all of the bad players money, but the times where the bad player gets lucky is all the bad player remembers.

How does this get fixed? Who knows. If it ever did, video games would blow up all forms of gambling. How can you install luck into a game that is mainly skill based? I have had thoughts that the game mode Test Your Luck is an example of something might work. Imagine getting matched up with sonic fox and you are lucky enough to have him draw half health. That may be enough for you to have a chance to win. However, sonic has he same chance at you drawing the half health and eventually his skill would overcome the luck of the draw. But for that one time, you could get lucky and beat the best in the world.

This should seriously be looked at as a long term issue. How can we get more casual players to feel like they have a chance in the bigs?
 
B

Bizzle PB

Noob
Zoidberg747 said:
Fighting games are already huge, just look at the release for MKX. The part about them that isn't big is the competitive scene. But making the game more random wouldn't change that, in fact it would mean the competitive scene would die off. No one wants to win or lose to stuff that is truly random, as that takes the skill out of the equation.

Smash does everything you just described but turns off all of it for competitive play, for good reason.
Click to expand...
You are wrong is saying it would die off. If you understood anything about game theory you would know that the better players would still over come the luck factor. With that being said, if the people showed up in droves to play a game that had some luck involved, the game would grow. Once the game grows, larger events would take place and more money would be in the prize pools. Sponsors would show up and loom for the better players. The best players would still have a long term advantage over everyone else, but on a day to day basis, that would maybe be undetectable.

Luck would be good for the game. You are wrong.
 
Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Bizzle PB said:
You are wrong is saying it would die off. If you understood anything about game theory you would know that the better players would still over come the luck factor. With that being said, if the people showed up in droves to play a game that had some luck involved, the game would grow. Once the game grows, larger events would take place and more money would be in the prize pools. Sponsors would show up and loom for the better players. The best players would still have a long term advantage over everyone else, but on a day to day basis, that would maybe be undetectable.

Luck would be good for the game. You are wrong.
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Good luck convincing developers and competitors otherwise.

Like I said before smash already does this but they turn all the randomness off. If they thought the same way then I doubt they would play the way they currently do(which is working quite well for them, I might add)
 
countrypistol

countrypistol

Noob
An easy way to test this would be to hold Test Your Luck tournaments and gauge the response. Personally, I'd rather a vanilla tournament than one with random elements, in the same way that I prefer chess to Scrabble.
 
Johnny San

Johnny San

Shazzy's Biggest Fan
Halo 4 did something similar. We all know what happened with that. KI has a sort of luck factor to it as well. I believe a poll took place which showed that a number of people don't go to tournaments because they don't feel they know enough yet to compete.

Maybe those are bad examples, but I don't think something like that would help much.
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
gamemk said:
In order for fighting games to grow, and have the average joe or joe-ette feel like they have a shot at winning big, the games need more randomness, like poker. I don't think it can get big just as a spectator sport, and it will be interesting to see if it stays as popular as it is after the shift from Usf4 to sf5.

I don't know how someone would make it more random, but that's the only way for it to get really big imo.
Maybe if they added something like random items: power boost item that increases health and certain characters can get to it faster than others but they have lower health; an item that boosts speed; and a mystery item that can cause damage if you use it or lead to another power advantage(Imagine the salt/hype that would come if neither player used the mystery item and it could have won the game. You could even reveal it after a game ended, like when someone folds in poker and would have won). You could also bet meter to acquire the item the fastest, like if I have 3 bars, and you have 2 bars, and we both see a random item appear--if I bet my 3 bars by doing some motion before you do, or before you reach it I get the item but I lose the meter. So, it's a trade off, but one that doesn't require a ton of skill other than reaction time and meter management.

You would have bad beats, where luck would beat skill, but it might be hype and it would let bums feel like they have a shot, which brings in more money.

Anyone agree/disagree? Since it's a competitive site, there will probably be a lot who disagree or who just don't care, but I don't think it's such a bad idea. It's better than making characters that can do stupid powerful attacks(cough El Fuerte) that seem difficult to make sense of(I have figured out Fuerte though), and random but only for one player.

Just a thought I had, wondering why weaker players go to tournaments that they almost have no chance of winning. I know some people go to hang out, but it seems like more people would go if they thought they had a shot.
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We really need a dislike button here.
 
Gesture Required Ahead

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
Ew no. There's enough luck in a lot of other games that it becomes a huge turn-off for some including me. It's even there to some degree in Fighting Games with the inclusion of gimmicks like Test Your Luck, playing with items on in Smash or playing online. That's as far as it should go. Seeing someone win because they're good is waaay more enjoyable to me than seeing someone win because of getting lucky. Besides, in MKX you already have too many fucking 50/50s that it's pretty much a game of coinflipping once someone gets that first lick. So if anything, less luck would be better.

But that's your opinion and this is mine.
 
jaepeso170

jaepeso170

I Have A Plan...Attack
I have always been a believer that esports mainly the FGC can be the Next Big Thing in sports if marketed correctly. Just think some pro sports players have played said sport (Baseball, soccer, football, etc) for years, some since they were in their early teens with dreams to make it to the majors and what do they tell their fans??? You can do it too. Now the FGC may have a "Cult" following but most people play for fun and some to be the Next big name competitve player a la Justin Wong or Sonicfox or REO or TomBrady, etc. In all honesty Im not the best player ever because if you dedicate yourself to what you enjoy doing whether it be games, baseball, etc then you make. The competitive FGC scene can thrive if we had more sponsors and marketing....or what the hell hype it up like boxing matches or WWE (LoL).

Sonicfox......the Unstoppable force going up against (Insert Random Name) who has been dubbed this seasons Rookie of The Year picking up 4 major tourney wins....the match you've been waiting for is finally happening Live on PPV from (Insert Arena)

LoL now imagine commercials, Interviews, "24/7" specials, Nationwide coverage....it can happen

Shoot it can be bigger than that horrid Mayweather/Pacquiao fight LOL
 
TarkatanDentist

TarkatanDentist

Noob
Zoidberg747 said:
Fighting games are already huge, just look at the release for MKX. The part about them that isn't big is the competitive scene. But making the game more random wouldn't change that, in fact it would mean the competitive scene would die off. No one wants to win or lose to stuff that is truly random, as that takes the skill out of the equation.

Smash does everything you just described but turns off all of it for competitive play, for good reason.
Click to expand...
All of this. So, so much.

Even small-scale random shenanigans in fighting games (stuff like Harley's trait) irritates me to no end tbh.


RYX said:
fighting games need more sexy men in less clothing

I'm planning on creating my male-oriented answer to 'Skullgirls' soon. I hope to call it 'Bulge Boys'
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I long for the day when a male MK character is given a kissing fatality.
 
jaepeso170

jaepeso170

I Have A Plan...Attack
gamemk said:
In order for fighting games to grow, and have the average joe or joe-ette feel like they have a shot at winning big, the games need more randomness, like poker. I don't think it can get big just as a spectator sport, and it will be interesting to see if it stays as popular as it is after the shift from Usf4 to sf5.

I don't know how someone would make it more random, but that's the only way for it to get really big imo.
Maybe if they added something like random items: power boost item that increases health and certain characters can get to it faster than others but they have lower health; an item that boosts speed; and a mystery item that can cause damage if you use it or lead to another power advantage(Imagine the salt/hype that would come if neither player used the mystery item and it could have won the game. You could even reveal it after a game ended, like when someone folds in poker and would have won). You could also bet meter to acquire the item the fastest, like if I have 3 bars, and you have 2 bars, and we both see a random item appear--if I bet my 3 bars by doing some motion before you do, or before you reach it I get the item but I lose the meter. So, it's a trade off, but one that doesn't require a ton of skill other than reaction time and meter management.

You would have bad beats, where luck would beat skill, but it might be hype and it would let bums feel like they have a shot, which brings in more money.

Anyone agree/disagree? Since it's a competitive site, there will probably be a lot who disagree or who just don't care, but I don't think it's such a bad idea. It's better than making characters that can do stupid powerful attacks(cough El Fuerte) that seem difficult to make sense of(I have figured out Fuerte though), and random but only for one player.

Just a thought I had, wondering why weaker players go to tournaments that they almost have no chance of winning. I know some people go to hang out, but it seems like more people would go if they thought they had a shot.
Click to expand...

The average joe/joe-ette does have a chance to win at tournaments. If they train and dedicate themselves to it than anyone can win. At the end of the Pros like Pig, REO, Brady are just like you and me...they play video games. They may be more dedicated than most but thats what you do if you want to be the best, you gotta put in that work

Look at the people who play League of Legends, some of them train for 15 hrs (Honestly I cant do that) and they end up winning $10,000,000. Mind you I can care less for League of Legends but you put a Grand Prize of $20 or $30 Gs and everybody and their grandma will train and compete for that lol
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
You could say this about any game, but the rest of the sports seem to be doing plenty well without it. You don't see the NBA offering random fans a chance to win games by rolling dice to handicap their stars.

Part of the fun in fighting games is reaching a point where the unpredictable things people do are something you can react to and surmount, and no one who's earned that ability wants to have it taken away by luck/artificial constraints.
 
FL Rushdown

FL Rushdown

Noob
Poker isn't random, the reason people do well at it is because they practice and understand quite a lot of math. Sure it has bad statistical breaks but like everything else that has stats it evens out. There's a reason there are famous poker players who consistently place/perform well.

As for competitive games needing randomness. No.
 
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