Fighting game archetypes and the next MK: A better way to balance

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

The way that Killer Instinct has approached their overhaul has my utmost respect and I want to tell you why and how NRS can apply this to the next MK.

What Double Helix did was remain true to the basic fundamentals of fighting games. This is something NRS tends to overlook. Their intentions are pure as they wish to create a new experience for their customers but we can't deny the way these things tend to be overpowering. In game gimmicks like instant death traps, super weapons, Interactables etc. These things can be more accessible if the core gameplay is set in stone first. By this I mean how the game plays without the gimmicks in its most pure version.

Really to cut to the chase I'm referring to Character Archetypes. Killer Instinct is broken down as follows:
Rushdown: Sabrewulf
Zoner: Glacius
Vortex: Sadira
Grapple: Thunder
Balanced: Jago, Orchid
Varied: Spinal, Fulgore

The depth of KI besides the unique combo system falls in its instinct mode. Instinct can take a character and completely change its archetype for a short time while other become better versions of the same archetype with increased abilities. For Example:
Spinal becomes a zoner/rushdown/vortex character that sucks your abilities from you
Fulgore becomes a zoner/rushdown/vortex character who's speed is also increased
Orchid's grants safer options in both the rushdown and vortex game with safe 50 50s
Thunder can rush down more effectively
Sadira becomes pre patch sub zero for a short time

But have you ever tried to place MK characters in an archetype system? Here is my best shot at it. Keep in mind I'm placing characters in the place of what their playstyle ended up being in high level tournament play. I am also going to define the category based on traditional views. High tiers are highlighted RED

Rushdown - Plus frames and pressure to catch your opponent pressing buttons. Quick movement and walk speed but very limited ranged options. Strong footsies and mid to high damage.
Sub Zero - via @Qwark28
BAraka
Jax
Johnny Cage
Sonya

Grapple - Not pure rushdown but needs to get in to be effective. Strong footsies and great damage but limited speed and ranged options. One could argue that their are no Grapplers in MK. Cyrax was the only one with an unblockable command grab...should he go here?
Sheeva (Low Grab was unblockable but still wasn't cyrax command grab)

Turtle - Plays a ranged game and relies on whiff punishing and superior normals to get damage. Medium to high damage but lacks rushdown plus frames, mixups, and zoning options. Best in the neutral game)
Apparently their are no turtle characters

Thinker - This is a setup based character like Lex Luthor that relies on setups to bait mistakes from their opponent. Momentum is key and can be very dangerous on just a couple right reads.
Cyber Sub Zero
Cyrax

Zoner - Typically wants to stay full screen and throw stuff. Has great keep away options but lacks forward mobility and speed. Required good anti air skills and reactions to be successful. Well placed projectiles and normals can make these characters seem over powered when they actually aren't.
Sindel
Shang (Ended up being both rushdown and a zoner)
Noob
Kenshi
Kitana
Kano
Freddy
Ermac
Stryker

Balanced - Can play either upclose or at full screen. These characters tend to always be viable and have no lopsided MU but should never be the best at anything.
Liu Kang
Kabal
Reptile

Vortex - Relies on mixups for damage above all else. Low damage but great mobility and normals make these characters deadly if they can guess your patterns.
Scorpion

Counter Zoner - This Archetype is built to get around zoners tools. They typically don't have rush down options but capitalize on zoners getting predictable. Very patient play and smart reads are critical. I think of hit and run and would use Smoke as the best example of the archetype in the list.
Kung Lao
Mileena
Nightwolf
Jade
Sektor
Raiden
Smoke
Rain

Varied - Change their style of play dependent on meter and other variables. Typically are very difficult to use and have high execution barriers. Some of the most depth in fighting games can be found in this Archetype. Also very well rounded and can deal great damage.
Quan Chi
Skarlet

Many of thee characters could be placed in many different catagories because developer intent of archetype doesn't always stay accurate. Did NRS intend Kabal to have be the best zoner and the best rushdown? Did they intend for him to be so good at each that you can't even place him? No but if you know the basic fundamentals of each archetype and stick to that then balance and surprises become less of an issue.

I hope this does not fall on deaf ears.

 

[Living Corpse]

You forgot one.

The fan service character.

J/K

 

[trufenix]

uh, killer instinct works as well as it does because there are 8 characters. You will find that the season 2 cast is not as cleanly defined as they are.

 

[Qwark28]

Since WHEN does Ermac lack zoning options and Subzero is a turtle?

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Since WHEN does Ermac lack zoning options and Subzero is a turtle?

ermac I can move...lol but Subzero is the definition of a turtle

@Tom Brady

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

uh, killer instinct works as well as it does because there are 8 characters. You will find that the season 2 cast is not as cleanly defined as they are.

uh...my bad i should have know how season 2 of KI was going to work. Silly me.

 

[Qwark28]

ermac I can move...lol but Subzero is the definition of a turtle

@Tom Brady

Not in MK9.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Will comment on the OP when I get home.

I have always believe that zoning, defensive and rush down should all be viable.

 

[trufenix]

uh...my bad i should have know how season 2 of KI was going to work. Silly me.

don't douche cause I called out your logic.

DH got away with making pure zoners, pure rushdown, pure grappler characters because they only had to fill out a 6 guy roster. Skullgirls did the same thing, their first few characters are ridiculously typecast, and only now are we starting to see characters play multiple sides of the field. Spinal and Fulgore are already way more "versatile" than the rest of the cast, the disparity is only going to widen when you invite other characters.

Lets say IG decides to make Tusk a grappler, well they can't make him as straightforward grappler as Thunder or you will run into the same situation KoF has where several characters have the same "playstyle" but one is plain better at it than another for some reason, so nobody picks the other guy. So Tusk (if he's a grappler) will probably be more akin to a strike grappler, like Abel or Jax than a pureblood tick throw close the gap monster. And that means he will have the potential to skirt the line between rush down, grappler, and maybe even counter zoner, depending on what kinda moves / hit boxes they give him.

 

[Protagonist_1]

Not a high level player, but I like the list. Character archetypes are really important as mentioned in the OP; my main beef with Kabal was how he excelled at both rushdown and zoning.

I also feel NRS should really look at the footsies handbook so they can focus on the neutral game more in their fighting games. Better normals, better anti-airs, importance of walking in fighting games. In addition, making the majority of the cast to respect the neutral game, and not having the tools to plow right through it. Solid emphasis on fundamentals leads to a solid fighting game.

 

[Chuckychuck]

When I look at fighting games I first see a spectrum from left to right. On this spectrum the far left is the strongest form of rush down and on the right the strongest form of keep away. In a fighting game there can be several spectrum's gauging the strength of the characters tools relative to the tools available in the game found in other characters. Since there are several spectrum's in the game from low tier to high tier you sometimes find characters who fall under the same archetype (same location along the spectrum) but are sitting on different tiers. One such example is Batman and MMH in Injustice or Liu Kang and Kabal in MK9.

Does NRS keep this in mind when they build fighting games? I have no idea. However I think if they first identify where each character should be sitting along the spectrum and along the tiers, it would simplify the balancing process quite a bit. Being able to identify each characters location will tell them what it is about them that is lacking and help guide them when they are balancing the characters.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

don't douche cause I called out your logic.

DH got away with making pure zoners, pure rushdown, pure grappler characters because they only had to fill out a 6 guy roster. Skullgirls did the same thing, their first few characters are ridiculously typecast, and only now are we starting to see characters play multiple sides of the field. Spinal and Fulgore are already way more "versatile" than the rest of the cast, the disparity is only going to widen when you invite other characters.

Lets say IG decides to make Tusk a grappler, well they can't make him as straightforward grappler as Thunder or you will run into the same situation KoF has where several characters have the same "playstyle" but one is plain better at it than another for some reason, so nobody picks the other guy. So Tusk (if he's a grappler) will probably be more akin to a strike grappler, like Abel or Jax than a pureblood tick throw close the gap monster. And that means he will have the potential to skirt the line between rush down, grappler, and maybe even counter zoner, depending on what kinda moves / hit boxes they give him.

The point of this thread was NOT to argue about the future potential of KI...but rather to use its current cast as a solid definition of Archetypes. I'm not sure if your defending NRS of flexing your internet muscle here. I also don't understand the "douche" comment. I agree with you over all but your post first was of a certain tone that I just reciprocated. The point of the thread was to give perspective on how lopsided MK archetypes are and how they don't really make sense.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Not in MK9.

what is he then?

 

[Prinz]

Cyrax - thinker. Lol. More like Dreamer, and a net.

 

[Qwark28]

what is he then?

Originally a turtle but later turned into a mix of turtle/rushdown. In some matchups he does both, depending on the life lead and in most he just chases since the game's so busted up.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Originally a turtle but later turned into a mix of turtle/rushdown. In some matchups he does both, depending on the life lead and in most he just chases since the game's so busted up.

so was my original placement as turtle really that far off?

If Cage was the definition of rushdown, would you still call subzero rushdown?

 

[Qwark28]

so was my original placement as turtle really that far off?

If Cage was the definition of rushdown, would you still call subzero rushdown?

He doesn't have a set in stone style. He is what the matchup allows him to be.

Yes, because that's what he should be doing in most matchups, he may be built on a turtle archetype but in the end he's forced to become something he's not, which is why he's bottom 10.

However, if you just want to list the original style, then yes, he's a turtle.

 

[Prinz]

I'd also add:
footsies chars - Jade, Ermac, Kenshi at some degree
reset/mix-up chars - Quan Chi.
And Kabal is definitely balanced... #sarcasm

 

[ChaosTheory]

what is he then?

He's not a turtle. Most players made the mistake of thinking he's supposed to lay Ice Clones and run away the entire match. That's why most Sub-Zero players were fucking terrible and thus considered him bottom 5 or whatever the consensus is.

 

[trufenix]

The point of this thread was NOT to argue about the future potential of KI...but rather to use its current cast as a solid definition of Archetypes. I'm not sure if your defending NRS of flexing your internet muscle here. I also don't understand the "douche" comment. I agree with you over all but your post first was of a certain tone that I just reciprocated. The point of the thread was to give perspective on how lopsided MK archetypes are and how they don't really make sense.

uh, my point is that the title of your thread says "a better way to balance" and unfortunately this method of balance is only available in games with casts in the single digits. There isn't a single game with a cast of any significant size that isn't mired by "lopsided archetypes", certainly not one with 20 year old character designs like MK.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

so was my original placement as turtle really that far off?

If Cage was the definition of rushdown, would you still call subzero rushdown?

Sub Zero is the best definition of turtle you can get in MK9. lol

Yes he has to rushdown sometimes, but that's not out of design... it's out of necessity.

I actually like rushing down with him though. lol

 

[Skkra]

I've always felt that NRS goes for style over substance, where making the game awesome is first, then balance is second. This ends up making this games insanely cool to play, but you end up with MVC2 syndrome where eventually only a scant few characters are competitively viable.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

He's not a turtle. Most players made the mistake of thinking he's supposed to lay Ice Clones and run away the entire match. That's why most Sub-Zero players were fucking terrible and thus considered him bottom 5 or whatever the consensus is.

I miss you bro. you playing KI glacius like your avatar led us all to believe for the last 5 years?

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

uh, my point is that the title of your thread says "a better way to balance" and unfortunately this method of balance is only available in games with casts in the single digits. There isn't a single game with a cast of any significant size that isn't mired by "lopsided archetypes", certainly not one with 20 year old character designs like MK.

uh, thats fine...thats just not my point.

 

[deathblooms2k4]

To be simplistic I'd say the thing NRS has done with their game design is add gimmicks to certain characters that eliminate footsies. I think this is a big criticism that NRS games have from players in other communities. Their fundamentals don't always directly translate and as such they get blown up by some of these gimmicks then write the game off entirely. In MK it was Kabal, Kung Lao and Kenshi (With kenshi there can be some arguments made to the contrary), for the most part these characters could ignore footsies entirely. Likewise in Injustice there are characters with teleports, armor, etc. that pretty much negate footsies.

It's because of this the match up knowledge learning curve is so much different compared to other fighters. Whether that's good or bad is debatable, clearly the NRS community is strong and enjoy the games produced.