F4 or 2,2,BF2?

[OtteNx]

Hey guys,

I was making some tests on Ermac's combos and the best way to end them.

I finished the combos with F4 and this is my conclusion:

F4 dont give a safe free jump punch, the best way to continue after F4 is using a dash. If u jump u can be punished by guys like Lao or Noob.

My conclusion and opinion: If the diference between the combo ending normal and F4 is higher than 5% (damage u can safelly do with F4 reset), continue it normally else end with F4.

Well, i want to know your opinion too guys, i started this post to know the best way to end the combos.

 

[Error]

If you want to zone your opponent or if you need the damage 22push, If you're playing an opponent that can out-zone you or is hard to catch use F4.

 

[SunnyD]

Against inexperienced and overly defensive players, i use the F4 reset, as most of them dont know how to react. Usually they block, which allows you to use the B2 unblockable. Players who tense up and mash buttons/panic i use 22 push, or F4 grab, as chances are they'll do something really weird and unexpected and catch you off guard.

Just keep in mind that you can never fail a 22push, whereas a F4 reset is always a risky maneuver.

 

[Kindred]

I usually try to mix it up by doing one of the following:

2,2,TKP
2,2,exTKP, TLP, Grab (works if they get up right away)
F4, grab (I sometimes add more F4s then grab)
F4, F2, TKS/TKP (F2 is safe on block & most ppl will jump after they block it so you catch them with TKP (not 100% sure about the TKS))

 

[Killphil]

The special thing about f4 is it works wonders on button mashers. Like the post above me says, you can do multiple f4's against a masher. I found out the hard way a long time ago. f4 will hit before any attack they do when done in succession with one another. In the case of how to end combos, I usually do 3,1, f4 and go from there. You can also mix people up with 2,2, tkp and then teleport to the other side of the screen. Not as effective as smoke's but the juggle and tkp lifts them high enough to where they can't get up to block the teleport punch. Really messes people up when they try to wakeup attack me.

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

The special thing about f4 is it works wonders on button mashers. Like the post above me says, you can do multiple f4's against a masher. I found out the hard way a long time ago. f4 will hit before any attack they do when done in succession with one another. In the case of how to end combos, I usually do 3,1, f4 and go from there. You can also mix people up with 2,2, tkp and then teleport to the other side of the screen. Not as effective as smoke's but the juggle and tkp lifts them high enough to where they can't get up to block the teleport punch. Really messes people up when they try to wakeup attack me.

i never thought of teleporting after the 22 tkp before, i might pick that up. as for the f4 i feel, as stated, workes good against most of the cast except charcters like lao which has a fast special

 

[Skkra]

i never thought of teleporting after the 22 tkp before, i might pick that up. as for the f4 i feel, as stated, workes good against most of the cast except charcters like lao which has a fast special

While I don't have an exact number yet, my preliminary frame data testing shows that f+4 is somewhere between +8 and +13 on hit. f+4 itself is 14 frames.

Kung Lao spin is 6 frames, if I remember correctly. I'll have to test consecutive f+4's against Kung Lao's spin. I would actually think that if you time your f+4's perfectly, consecutive f+4 on hit should be uninterruptable without armor.

 

[zaf]

some other cool shit to get into is ending combos with ex tkp.
after the hard knockdown, they cant tech, so teleport and go behind them.
from here any special they will do will not have invincible frames because they are behind you.
now that you are behind them, do an iafb:

- this will hit people not blocking, this will also hit people staying on the ground not blocking. after they are hit you are at extreme advantage. from here continue any use of pressure.
- for people who are blocking either high or low, after the iafb continue to use any form of pressure. you should have advantage after this.

the thing about ending combos with f4 or with 22 tkp, is that there really is no best way to end a combo.
you can either end it with 22 tkp for a health advantage, to make more metter, to continue to zone, to continue pressure afterwards with a whiffed teleport (explained above).
end combos with a reset for continued pressure and set ups. knowing how your opponent will react will only make a reset easier and then get them back into another combo ending with a reset back into a situation in your favour.

i prefer the reset because i know with my vast array of set ups and gay, that i can get someone again after it. however i do use 22tkp depending on the situation.

 

[PimpUigi]

Personally I hate the F4 reset ender.
I say go for the 22 TKP, or better yet the 2nd JK~TP, D1~TKP...

That's an amazing post you just made [MENTION=3024]zaf[/MENTION], any IAFB Ermac tech is great.

 

[QjonPL]

Remember that after f4 Ermac has guaranteed (non interruptable) throw attempt

 

[ELC]

Has anyone tried a pseudo-frametrap of F4 F2 TKS/TKP to check opponents?

 

[zaf]

Yes after f4 resets, i use f2. This move has frame advantage of +5. d1 is uniteruptedable after this except from super armor/xrays.
Most of the time after this move, ( i guess people are too antsy/impatient/ or just dont know ermac) people try to jump in, away or do some action, so its easy to check people and get a tks.

Its hard to land f2 after a jump in punch since it can be interupted, or just while in close range combat because it comes out on frame 21.
Very easy to see this coming and stop it.
But if you use the reset to get this in, it can work wonders.

for instance, if you end a combo in a reset, go for a f2. After this like i mention above, check the opponent with a tks.
NOW, once you get another reset, end it again with an f2. Now depending on your opponent, if they are smart enough they wont move because they'll get grabbed by tks again. People do tend to be smarter after eating this once. So now that you have them respecting the tks after the f2 trap, this opens up new things.

From here, you can:
-dash in grab
-dash in d1/d4
-dash in and start a block string.
-jump away
-cross over jump
-f4
-another f2 to confuse them even more (get them to move to grab them with tks lol)
-cross over jump in kick cancel into iafb
-dash in into iafb.
-dash in, into unblockable
-dash in, into unblockable cancel

see, you can do anything after a f2, its just a matter of reading your opponent.
my favorite useage of this so far has been using an unblockable after the f2. I canceled this and dashed back. The opponent went to jump over me and i aa uppercut into a reset combo, and then back in f2.

 

[Skkra]

That is some really good stuff, Zaf. Do you have any footage on youtube? I'd love to see your Ermac in action. Searching "zaf ermac" didnt bring anything up.

I prefer to end combos with 2,2 TKP unless its someone who I specifically want at a huge disadvantage, like Raiden. Otherwise, I'd prefer to force someone to come back to me. From everything I'm learning lately, it feels like Ermac's pressure/rushdown game is seriously underrated.

Everyone on the boards talks about 3,1. 3,1 is by far Ermac's best pressure string, since a blocked 3,1 leaves you at a huge advantage with ridiculous mixup/pressure potential. Everyone says its so easy to just d+3 under the 1, but I haven't seen a single tournament video featuring Ermac where someone actually does this. The string comes out very fast, you're often doing it after a jump-in punch, etc. No one wants to be letting go of block in this situation. The entirety of my close pressure is based around that string, as I have yet to find anything that comes CLOSE to the frame advantage you get from it on block.

 

[PimpUigi]

The 1 in 31 is duckable, so the 31 string is extremely punishable on block.

 

[Skkra]

The 1 in 31 is duckable, so the 31 string is extremely punishable on block.

Yeah, in theory. But that's what I'm saying. I've never seen tournament footage of anyone actually destroying that string by ducking or interrupting it. Do you have a link to footage showing someone blowing that string up?

 

[PimpUigi]

I've had it done to my Ermac, and I've done it to Ermac myself, but to my knowledge this is not widely known or talked about information.
You can always do 3~TKS to the people who try to uppercut you out of it anyway. This will help lessen the chance of getting knocked out of it in hopes they get to punish a blocked TKS once they find out you're a risky Ermac player.

Characters like Mileena can get away with it the easiest since I think the 1 and 2 of 312 both whiff on her crouch block...in those cases the overhead U4 is semi helpful.

 

[Error]

A lot of these small things go unpunished in tournaments because they fear the stagger that 31(2) causes on hit, most of the people I play online punish it or even just jump out with no problem, because they've got nothing to lose.

 

[Skkra]

Once you check someone with 3~TKS, they'll stop trying to interrupt if they're not stupid... and if they are, just keeping running it! Otherwise, they'll stop trying to interrupt because they're scared of the 3~TKS setup - which they should be!

If you notice they like to jump out of pressure after 3,1, a standing 1 should catch them for a free juggle. I'm 90% sure I saw Metzos do it in the recent front page footage, but I don't have time to review it myself now since I'm at the office. There are so many potential setups off of blocked 3,1 - either ways to quickly teach your opponent you better block this or I'll punish you! or to catch them for trying to jump out. People should be afraid to do anything but keep blocking or burn an EX stock for armor after they block that.

 

[zaf]

You won't find any tournament videos of situations like this because of a few things:
- no one really plays ermac anymore. TBH i play him cuz im too lazy to learn other chars lol.
- people who play ermac never play on stream or play on recorded tvs.
I play this game a lot with my rl friend Jer. He is a mileena player. He went to NECIIX. He had friendlies with Krazyie bone for over an hour and a half. Krazyie's ermac never won a match against Jer, also his cyrax never won. I asked jer to compare my ermac and ermac tech to Krazyie's and Jer says mine is leagues better. I'm not here to put anyone down or make fun of anyone. I'm just mentioning this because Krazyie claims to have all kinds of tech and have a great ermac ( tech he doesn't share, or old tech he claims is his). When I watch his videos, all I see is jumping, b2 cancels and 3,1. So if this is suppose to be the ermac of the US, and I have better tech and set ups which is never recorded, I can only imagine all the other great ermacs that never see any credit or light.

anyways.......

Another great move to use for frame advantge similar to 3,1 is just F2. Its not frame trap heavy, only +5 but you can work shit with this.

I play with people who punish everything everytime.

Everytime I attempted a 3,1 in the past, it got punished afte the 3. So i started to do 3~tks to get people to fuck off.
Like skkra mentions, you can do this to get people to block the 1.
Once people are no longer hitting you out of the 3,1 string you are now open to fuck with them.
I'm not going to sit here and speak about what you can do after 3,1 or what you can do with this. The list is too long and just follow the same patterns i did in other posts of what you can do after something or in a set up.

It is still never a bad option to go for the third hit and do the full 3,1,2.
When someone adapts to the 3~tks and wait for the 3,1 they will eventually try to find a way out of this. Letting the 2 rip will usually catch your opponent and you get a free jump in.

 

[KamikazeJD]

You won't find any tournament videos of situations like this because of a few things:
- no one really plays ermac anymore. TBH i play him cuz im too lazy to learn other chars lol.
- people who play ermac never play on stream or play on recorded tvs.
I play this game a lot with my rl friend Jer. He is a mileena player. He went to NECIIX. He had friendlies with Krazyie bone for over an hour and a half. Krazyie's ermac never won a match against Jer, also his cyrax never won. I asked jer to compare my ermac and ermac tech to Krazyie's and Jer says mine is leagues better. I'm not here to put anyone down or make fun of anyone. I'm just mentioning this because Krazyie claims to have all kinds of tech and have a great ermac ( tech he doesn't share, or old tech he claims is his). When I watch his videos, all I see is jumping, b2 cancels and 3,1. So if this is suppose to be the ermac of the US, and I have better tech and set ups which is never recorded, I can only imagine all the other great ermacs that never see any credit or light.

anyways.......

Another great move to use for frame advantge similar to 3,1 is just F2. Its not frame trap heavy, only +5 but you can work shit with this.

I play with people who punish everything everytime.

Everytime I attempted a 3,1 in the past, it got punished afte the 3. So i started to do 3~tks to get people to fuck off.
Like skkra mentions, you can do this to get people to block the 1.
Once people are no longer hitting you out of the 3,1 string you are now open to fuck with them.
I'm not going to sit here and speak about what you can do after 3,1 or what you can do with this. The list is too long and just follow the same patterns i did in other posts of what you can do after something or in a set up.

It is still never a bad option to go for the third hit and do the full 3,1,2.
When someone adapts to the 3~tks and wait for the 3,1 they will eventually try to find a way out of this. Letting the 2 rip will usually catch your opponent and you get a free jump in.

lol u dont seem to like krayzie much.. But I play ermac too. Ive been on stream with my ermac. Ive placed high in each tournament ive been to. I want to see yours zaf.. I can bet I can beat yours. As well as anyone elses. And I prove that in tournies. Ive never seen urs. So prove ur the best man, or at least top 10..
Sorry for gettin off topic.. But there is no right answer for the op question. Its a matter of preference and play style. I rush alot so I use f4 more often to set up for crossovers

 

[zaf]

Id love to play you kamikaze, for hours even. I do see your videosand I do agree with the things you post, so I do know you are a compotent ermac player and understand shit about him. For the record, I never did say I was the best ermac, or have ever even tried to say this. I don't care if I am the best or if I am the worst. I even said in my post I was not out to harm anyoneor be mean, all I did was state comparisons from other players. I don't even think krazyie is bad, I just hate his ermac lol

 

[KamikazeJD]

Lol I feel it cuz.. Im jus tryna raise awareness. We still out here reppin ermac.. I got a tournament early january so ima do my best.. Dont give up on mac, hes got so much potential left.. We gotta dig deeper.

 

[Metzos]

About the point of this thread. 22 TKP your opponents if they are rushdown characters and F4 your opponents if you cant zone them. Its not about the dmg its about the matchup. About what zaf said. I pretty much agree with him. I wasnt impressed with Krayzie's Ermac vs 16 bit either and i told him so. He did many mistakes versus Kitana (for example too many jump ins, plus a lift after a blocked B114). But that doesnt mean that he doesnt try to rep Ermac over in the US. The only Ermac players i know who go to tournaments are Ermaculate_Slim and KamiJD. About what Skkra said for 31. Its true. Everyone speaks about how they can punish 1, but no one ever does it. Reason ? 2. Simple as that. Everything is good in theory but what it really matters is if you can actually can do what you say in theory. A smart player will ALWAYS fear the stagger of 2. I dont care if anyone says "Ermac has no pressure or Ermac has to jump in to create pressure" and i dont care if they can punish it online. Online Reptile's dash is safe for example. Johnny Cage is S tier online. Am i to take that bs seriously ? No. What i m trying to say here is this. If you live in the US, you play Ermac and you wanna rep your character start going to tournaments. Its the only way to get recognized.



EDIT: About 3 to lift. I ve been saying this for ages but its risky. If you are to use it better have breaker just in case.

 

[Skkra]

Everything is good in theory but what it really matters is if you can actually can do what you say in theory. A smart player will ALWAYS fear the stagger of 2. I dont care if anyone says "Ermac has no pressure or Ermac has to jump in to create pressure" and i dont care if they can punish it online. If you live in the US, you play Ermac and you wanna rep your character start going to tournaments. Its the only way to get recognized.

Metzos, there was recent front-page coverage of your Ermac, and I was very impressed. I definitely absorbed a lot watching you, and will watch those videos again sometime soon. I will be out there repping Ermac as hard as possible. I'm working my ass off to level up as fast as I can. I'll be at both Winter Brawl and Final Round.

These discussions are good, and we should keep them going in as much detail as possible. Ermac is very solid, and all of our playstyles have strong points that we can learn from and incorporate to the overall gameplan.

I come from Tekken and Capcom games, and I'm shocked at how this community looks at this game. It hasnt even been out a YEAR and people are acting like its already figured out. People have NO IDEA what HALF of the characters in the game are even capable of yet! It's unbelievable. Look at CDJr with Jax or Shujinkydink with Quan Chi. It takes the right person to play the right character and show what they're capable of. The Ermac forum is filled with smart and literate players, and we should be sharing information and building each other up as much as possible.

 

[Skkra]

Now that that little rant is out of the way, on to metzos' point. For the record, please assume that when I talk about players here, I'm talking about SOLID players. There is no point discussing the habits of predictable scrubs.

Everyone has to remember that online is NOT tournament. 3,1,2 is possible the most key string that Ermac has, since his close-up game revolves around it. The first hit cannot be ducked, 3,1 is +frames, and 3,1,2 is -frames but safe on block. Like Metzos said, there is no real problem with throwing out the complete 3,1,2 - in fact, when I'm playing a set with someone online, I'll START the first game or two by ALWAYS finishing the string. You need to train your opponent and create the expectation that they have to keep blocking.

Once you've done that, stop at 3,1 and throw or jump-over punch. If they start breaking your throws, finish 3,1,2 again and jump in for another iteration. I'm fairly sure the mindgames you can run with this string are ridiculously deep.