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Examining and Contrasting Fujin's Frame Data

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
I see lots of questions and confusion about Fujin's frame data so I did some research and decided to create this thread without the drama and insults.

Beginning with the jab, 1 starts up in 7 frames. 1,1,u+4 is -4 on block and has the "Rain super kick" krushing blow, but you cannot combo. The krushing blow activates whether the first or second jab connects as a counter hit or punish. 1,2,4,3,4 is the other safe jab string. The second hit of 1,2 starts up one frame faster than the second hit of 1,1 (i.e., 10 vs. 11 frames) so 1,2 may be slightly better than 1,1 as an auto-shimmy tool. Neither 1,2,u+4 nor 1,2,4,3,4 have flawless blockable gaps on any hits.

f+3 is the long range slide that low profiles high projectiles. The slide can even low profile V2 Robocop's low auto and certain mid attacks. f+3 is not safe on block, but f+3,1 is at -7 on block. If f+3 whiffs and the second hit connects, Fujin earns a krushing blow. However, if f+3 gets flawless blocked, the second hit is disabled and Fujin is at -16 on block, but there is no flawless blockable gap between the hits.

Fujin's throws offer limited okizeme, but he has access to a krushing blow on both throws, which is consistent with other characters of similar designs.

I assume the vast majority of the controversy stems from the b+1,1,2,1,2 string. b+1 is -16 on block. b+1,1 is -14 on block, and b+1,1,2,1,2 is -17 on block with a flawless blockable gap on the last hit. This frame data can vary by a couple of frames depending on the distance between Fujin and the opponent. b+1 has a disjointed hitbox like Noob's and Spawn's b+1. Noob's b+1,1+3 is -17 on block with push back and Spawn's b+1,2 is -12 on block without push back so Fujin's b+1,1 is consistently unsafe too. However, the initial hit is arguably too unsafe at -16 on block.

In V2, needle can play a guessing game to make b+1,1 safe. Needle is always -16 on block. EX needle is only -1 on block, but there is a flawless blockable gap. You can also cancel into sky walker and drop down using one bar of defensive meter, but this option can also be punished. In V3, EX wind push makes all strings completely safe on block, but the variation has a very low damage output from what I have observed.

The safety of mid strings obviously matters a lot in this game, but I should note that Cetrion, who is one of the best characters in the game, has an unsafe f+2,3, but Dragon rotates between stopping the string or finishing the string or canceling into the wall. If you watch Hayatei, who is currently the best Fujin player, he follows the same concept with needle, EX needle, and sky walker, even occasionally including the dive kick from sky walker.

I am no Fujin player so please add and/or correct anything in this post. I encourage everyone to watch Hayatei's Twitch. He has been streaming every night since Aftermath's release.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
He has enough options to keep you guessing (even tho he is in fact pretty punishable after each option). I wish that f4 on hit was plus enough for you to micro dash in and standing 1 without the possibility of them ducking it... that would be dope.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
He has enough options to keep you guessing (even tho he is in fact pretty punishable after each option). I wish that f4 on hit was plus enough for you to micro dash in and standing 1 without the possibility of them ducking it... that would be dope.
So what you are saying is that the character is dog shit? :DOGE

In all seriousness, thanks for mentioning f+4. I need to examine the move too and edit my post.
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
I see lots of questions and confusion about Fujin's frame data so I did some research and decided to create this thread without the drama and insults.

Beginning with the jab, 1 starts up in 7 frames. 1,1,u+4 is -4 on block and has the "Rain super kick" krushing blow, but you cannot combo. The krushing blow activates whether the first or second jab connects as a counter hit or punish. 1,2,4,3,4 is the other safe jab string. The second hit of 1,2 starts up one frame faster than the second hit of 1,1 (i.e., 10 vs. 11 frames) so 1,2 may be slightly better than 1,1 as an auto-shimmy tool. Neither 1,2,u+4 nor 1,2,4,3,4 have flawless blockable gaps on any hits.

f+3 is the long range slide that low profiles high projectiles. The slide can even low profile V2 Robocop's low auto and certain mid attacks. f+3 is not safe on block, but f+3,1 is at -7 on block. If f+3 whiffs and the second hit connects, Fujin earns a krushing blow. However, if f+3 gets flawless blocked, the second hit is disabled and Fujin is at -16 on block, but there is no flawless blockable gap between the hits.

Fujin's throws offer limited okizeme, but he has access to a krushing blow on both throws, which is consistent with other characters of similar designs.

I assume the vast majority of the controversy stems from the b+1,1,2,1,2 string. b+1 is -16 on block. b+1,1 is -14 on block, and b+1,1,2,1,2 is -17 on block with a flawless blockable gap on the last hit. This frame data can vary by a couple of frames depending on the distance between Fujin and the opponent. b+1 has a disjointed hitbox like Noob's and Spawn's b+1. Noob's b+1,1+3 is -17 on block with push back and Spawn's b+1,2 is -12 on block without push back so Fujin's b+1,1 is consistently unsafe too. However, the initial hit is arguably too unsafe at -16 on block.

In V2, needle can play a guessing game to make b+1,1 safe. Needle is always -16 on block. EX needle is only -1 on block, but there is a flawless blockable gap. You can also cancel into sky walker and drop down using one bar of defensive meter, but this option can also be punished. In V3, EX wind push makes all strings completely safe on block, but the variation has a very low damage output from what I have observed.

The safety of mid strings obviously matters a lot in this game, but I should note that Cetrion, who is one of the best characters in the game, has an unsafe f+2,3, but Dragon rotates between stopping the string or finishing the string or canceling into the wall. If you watch Hayatei, who is currently the best Fujin player, he follows the same concept with needle, EX needle, and sky walker, even occasionally including the dive kick from sky walker.

I am no Fujin player so please add and/or correct anything in this post. I encourage everyone to watch Hayatei's Twitch. He has been streaming every night since Aftermath's release.
You are saying b+1,1 into needle OR skywalk right? Not needle canceled into skywalk?

After blocking a lot of those needle attacks, I looked at that move yesterday. I ended up finding good punishes for almost every character I tried regardless of if he MB'ed or not. The recover on the non MB version takes so long, that you can just look for the MB flash to Flawless block the MB version. If you don't see it just sit and wait for the normal version to leave him -16.

Probably harder online, It was very easy to do, and if you had meter it was basically a guaranteed combo regardless if he MB'ed it or not. The -16 looked hard to punish given the distance, but Frost was the only one of my characters that couldn't get more than b4 off, and that's not a bad place for her to end up. Soyna required a micro dash, but got a full combo. Sheeva and Kitana could both punish off of their b1's with no effort. Baraka f4 into special. Stuff like that.
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
Royal Contributor
It’s so laughable Cherny made that whole thread saying this character is dog shit. I am maining v2. Mark my words and please quote me. V2 if untouched will easily end up being too 5 in the game
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
Royal Contributor
V2 imo is the best designed character in the game that actually requires execution and variety of play. It actually rewards the player for learning the character in depth.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
It’s so laughable Cherny made that whole thread saying this character is dog shit. I am maining v2. Mark my words and please quote me. V2 if untouched will easily end up being too 5 in the game
I mean, I disagree with the character being "dog shit", yet I do not understand how he is "easily top 5 in the game."

Please explain.
 
If you watch Hayatei, who is currently the best Fujin player, he follows the same concept with needle, EX needle, and sky walker, even occasionally including the dive kick from sky walker.
I tested this recently by recording the bot to do the following in a random hidden order:
  • 423
  • 42~Wakka cancel
  • 42~Needle
  • 42~Needle Amp
I'd like to know if anyone can flawless block or punish these options every time.

Applied to b11212 would be the same but between amping the Sky Wakka, dive kick, air parry, etc.
 
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DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
In v1 you can do short hop cancels to cause a mind game of finishing strings or not. Also, you can retreat with AMP tornado after b11212 because if someone like Liu or Sub tries to punish it with flying kick or slide, they get launched for a combo since the hitbox is active. The same can be said for a lot of characters as well.

The alternative is use a projectile as a punish since you don't need to play the mind game of amp tornado or not. The drawback is that the damage Fujin takes isn't a big deal.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
I tested this recently by recording the bot to do the following in a random hidden order:
  • 423
  • 42~Wakka cancel
  • 42~Needle
  • 42~Needle Amp
I'd like to know if anyone can flawless block or punish these options every time.

Applied to b11212 would be the same but between amping the Sky Wakka, dive kick, air parry, etc.
Dragon has been streaming for most of the evening and using V2 Fujin. Nobody has been punishing b+1,1 consistently on block, not even Sonic Fox whom Dragon played for 60 games earlier.

Also, you can retreat with AMP tornado after b11212 because if someone like Liu or Sub tries to punish it with flying kick or slide, they get launched for a combo since the hitbox is active.
Very interesting option to deal with advancing special moves. I did not know amplified tornado had that property. Regular tornado also seems to work. I tested briefly versus Sub Zero's slide.
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
Royal Contributor
I mean, I disagree with the character being "dog shit", yet I do not understand how he is "easily top 5 in the game."

Please explain.
It's a summation of all of his tools and it would take me forever to type it out on my phone but essentially it boils down to having the ability to make an opponent freeze up from 2/3 screen out of fear of being comboed from b2 for almost 30% into plus 8 restand. And its mostly safe.