Tech - Cutthroat EX Buff corner oki OS

[MsMiharo]

Hi everyone, it's a me MsMihario!

This tech is not new per se as I know @PND_Mustard has posted it before, but it's more a development of it.

In the corner after a meterless combo off your f2, b3 or b1 you get an OS of sorts on their wakeup.

The long-ish breakdown video is here:

The written version of this is:

After a meterless combo ended in upball your opponent quickrises (unless WU is delayed) and you get a 50/50 into EX buff check.

* If they delay their WU, you just whiff your b1/b3 and EX buff doesn't come out. You're still in poke range (b1) or 50/50 range (b3) and still safe.
* If they DON'T delay their WU they HAVE to eat the 50/50. No pokes will beat it out no matter tech roll or not.
* If they block you're safe (slightly plus)
* If they get hit they eat big damage:

b1 EX buff f212 b312 112 ball = 44%
b1 EX buff f212 b312 112 EX slice njp 112 up ball = 56%

b3 EX buff 112 slice = 22% into free 50/50
b3 EX buff 32 knife 32 ball = 34% (or 31% if you end in d4 ball)
b3 EX buff 112 EX slice njp 4 slice 112 ball = 51%

* If they armor you will parry WU's that are 14 f or slower (at least! Might parry some faster WUs).
* If you parry you get an unscaled 3% (b3) or 5% (b1) into a punish.

112 slice = 20% into free 50/50
32 knife 32 ball = 34% (or 30% if you end in d4 ball)
f212 b312 112 ball = 42%
f212 b312 112 EX slice njp 112 up ball = 54%



TL;DR
End your meterless corner combos in upball and force a guess (especially if they don't have meter). If they guess wrong they die, if they guess right you're still fine. If they WU with slow armor they get punished. If they delay the wakeup nothing really happens.

@Jupe
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@jokey77

 

[Scott The Scot]

When MKX is dead, people will talk about Cutthroat and Spectral Ermac as if they talked about Kabal and MMH in their own respective games. This character has some ridiculous tools lol. Good find!


Before you all jump down my throat. I'm not comparing these characters to them. I'm being hyperbolic and merely trying to create an image about how these are all super powerful characters that have a ridiculous amount of tools in their arsenal.Take chill pill lmao.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

@ragnar0kz28

this "bottom 5 character" tech doe

 

[ragnar0kz28]

@ragnar0kz28

this "bottom 5 character" tech doe

I said Kano in general was buttom 5 the character as a whole, CT is a good variation maybe a top 15 variation, but cybernetic and commando are buttom 10 variations. Kitana has a 2 hit armor move so it wont work on her so im ok

 

[MsMiharo]

I said Kano in general was buttom 5 the character as a whole, CT is a good variation maybe a top 15 variation, but cybernetic and commando are buttom 10 variations. Kitana has a 2 hit armor move so it wont work on her so im ok

Pretty sure it will still punish it.

 

[jokey77]

Actually I was trying to go for lowpoke~(ex) upball lately. As you said this is an option select of some sort and the fast hitting uppball will only come out against a wakeup. I need to test it a little more, but some wakeups get beaten even by the ordinary upball. The ex version of upball seems to work even against ex spin (this is what was tested). Besides it is multihitting, so maybe even Goros punchwalk or Kitana might get hit by ex upball.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Pretty good tech, but didn't mustard show case this before? I've seen this so many times and done it too. But still, good on you for posting this for the people who don't know.

 

[Santa_Destroyer]

Pretty good tech, but didn't mustard show case this before? I've seen this so many times and done it too. But still, good on you for posting this for the people who don't know.

That's exactly what it says in the text and the video.

 

[MsMiharo]

Pretty good tech, but didn't mustard show case this before? I've seen this so many times and done it too. But still, good on you for posting this for the people who don't know.

Mustard showed from the oh only iirc. This adds more of a 50/50 element and shows exactly how to confirm off of it. Also I credited mustard in both text and video.

 

[MsMiharo]

Actually I was trying to go for lowpoke~(ex) upball lately. As you said this is an option select of some sort and the fast hitting uppball will only come out against a wakeup. I need to test it a little more, but some wakeups get beaten even by the ordinary upball. The ex version of upball seems to work even against ex spin (this is what was tested). Besides it is multihitting, so maybe even Goros punchwalk or Kitana might get hit by ex upball.

The thing with ex upball is that on block you lose your turn. While I'm not 100% sure on the frame data I'm pretty sure it's at least +, making it more advantageous

 

[jokey77]

The thing with ex upball is that on block you lose your turn. While I'm not 100% sure on the frame data I'm pretty sure it's at least +, making it more advantageous

Dunno... if timed correctly during the wakeup window, ex upball won't even come out unless the opponent is doing a wakeup. Thus you either beat him or nothing happens...

Besides I don't know how reliable the armor of the ex-buff really is, because the whole move has a very short animation. E.g. I think it would lose to a wake-up ex-upball and every multihitting special.

I still think that the tech is great though. However both variations should be considered, I guess. They seem situational to me.

 

[MsMiharo]

Dunno... if timed correctly during the wakeup window, ex upball won't even come out unless the opponent is doing a wakeup. Thus you either beat him or nothing happens...

Besides I don't know how reliable the armor of the ex-buff really is, because the whole move has a very short animation. E.g. I think it would lose to a wake-up ex-upball and every multihitting special.

I still think that the tech is great though. However both variations should be considered, I guess. They seem situational to me.

I mean on block. Ie they get up and block the d4 and upball. You're -6 after that which is fine but you lose your turn. This works on slow WUs so you wouldn't use it vs upball anyways since it's super fast lol

 

[jokey77]

I mean on block. Ie they get up and block the d4 and upball. You're -6 after that which is fine but you lose your turn. This works on slow WUs so you wouldn't use it vs upball anyways since it's super fast lol

Totally. But is it even possible to just get up and block during the timewindow for a wake-up? I really don't know, but I was thinking that not. Imho there is a timewindow when only wake-up and roll are possible. Slightly afterwards you can get up and block, but you lose wake-up properties and getting up takes a few extra frames because of its animation.

 

[MsMiharo]

Totally. But is it even possible to just get up and block during the timewindow for a wake-up? I really don't know, but I was thinking that not. Imho there is a timewindow when only wake-up and roll are possible. Slightly afterwards you can get up and block, but you lose wake-up properties and getting up takes a few extra frames because of its animation.

The difference between wake up and wake up block is kinda small, I wouldn't consider it consistent enough

 

[Jupe]

@MsMiharo I gotta ask why not just go for kanoball ender and the normal oki meaty timing with this setup? I was testing it with the normal timing against reptiles ex slide, and it seems to work. Problem is that with fast wakeups (maybe slower ones too) you have to guess if they tech roll or not, cuz that changes the timing. I'd still always go for the techroll timing as it's surprisingly difficult to do a wakeup move after kanoball without getting techroll.

Few videos of me testing the timings, with meterless combos you have to wait a split second after the knife toss and with 1bar combos you can start the string pretty much instantly. Against tech roll you have to wait a bit longer in both cases.

Spoiler: Meterless

Spoiler: 1 bar

 

[MsMiharo]

@MsMiharo I gotta ask why not just go for kanoball ender and the normal oki meaty timing with this setup? I was testing it with the normal timing against reptiles ex slide, and it seems to work. Problem is that with fast wakeups (maybe slower ones too) you have to guess if they tech roll or not, cuz that changes the timing. I'd still always go for the techroll timing as it's surprisingly difficult to do a wakeup move after kanoball without getting techroll.

Few videos of me testing the timings, with meterless combos you have to wait a split second after the knife toss and with 1bar combos you can start the string pretty much instantly. Against tech roll you have to wait a bit longer in both cases.

Spoiler: Meterless

Spoiler: 1 bar

Because you have to alter the timing basically. And the quickstand is quite decent for catching people off guard. For regular ball I prefer going for meterless buff

 

[Solomon Gorondy]

This is awesome. Thank you again MsMiharo for taking my Kano to the next level.

I have a question about using Blade Slice as a standing reset in the corner. The move is at +15 on hit and Kano is within range for both his 13 frame Overhead and 14 frame Low combo starters. I recorded Kano ending with this and could do nothing but block the mix-up; X-ray, Back-dash, jumping, and armour don't seem to work. so here's my question: Am I correct in thinking its a guaranteed 50/50 in the corner? You'd think there'd be more mention about such a thing. Especially since his corner OKI is so powerful.

 

[MsMiharo]

This is awesome. Thank you again MsMiharo for taking my Kano to the next level.

I have a question about using Blade Slice as a standing reset in the corner. The move is at +15 on hit and Kano is within range for both his 13 frame Overhead and 14 frame Low combo starters. I recorded Kano ending with this and could do nothing but block the mix-up; X-ray, Back-dash, jumping, and armour don't seem to work. so here's my question: Am I correct in thinking its a guaranteed 50/50 in the corner? You'd think there'd be more mention about such a thing. Especially since his corner OKI is so powerful.

It's a guaranteed 50/50 but you surprisingly little chances to use it since you're usually better off just going for a full combo, unless you happen to catch them with 112 or f4 slice (or d4 slice shenanigans)

 

[Osagri]

Tag me on these threads from now on. Appreciated

 

[Solomon Gorondy]

So uh if your taking requests; I'd like to see a guide on Kano's Dragon Ball Resets. Basically, on a standing foe, all 3 variations of Kano get a guaranteed 50/50 after this combo: Starter/Ball-Cancel, FJ1, B31... Run/Mix-Up.

Kano can also use other normals and attain the same guaranteed mix-up thanks to ample frame advantage. These moves include: 11, 2, F3, and F4. I could see a mind game where your opponent is waiting for the B31 reset but instead gets a 11 reset and such n such.

Edit:
While it is possible in Cutthroat, it is in no way viable.

In Commando it is kind of outclassed by using 22/Blade Throw to set-up the 50/50 because Kano nets an extra ~8% before the mix-up. However that mix-up does not have to be blocked if the foe can exploit the small gap before the hit and or throw. It may still have some small value because of that reason alone.

As of MKXL, Cybernetic Kano seems to be the only variation where this tech is actually a viable tool. The reason: Kano can use his Eyeblast to further extend a standing combo which results in more combo-damage and combo-scaling before the reset which gives Kano enough of a reason to end early when he sees fit to do so. I will say that his hit/throw mix-ups are pretty weak though.

 

[MsMiharo]

So uh if your taking requests; I'd like to see a guide on Kano's Dragon Ball Resets. Basically, on a standing foe, all 3 variations of Kano get a guaranteed 50/50 after this combo: Starter/Ball-Cancel, FJ1, B31... Run/Mix-Up.

Kano can also use other normals and attain the same guaranteed mix-up thanks to ample frame advantage. These moves include: 11, 2, F3, and F4. I could see a mind game where your opponent is waiting for the B31 reset but instead gets a 11 reset and such n such.

Not worth sacrificing the damage. If you're in commando you can end in jip 22 knife and they have to guess command grab or b13 (or just frame armor). B13 will catch most backdashes and jumps and you can confirm into d3 command grab (jump), choke or 1+3 MB (backdash).

In cutthroat you want to go for f212 after ball to get more guaranteed damage.

In cyber you can go for s2 to guarantee a guess but the guess is basically low/mid or grab so it's kind of weak. Better off using 112 knife as an ender and run in grab/b13. In the corner you want to restand with b13 1+3

 

[jokey77]

@MsMiharo I gotta ask why not just go for kanoball ender and the normal oki meaty timing with this setup? I was testing it with the normal timing against reptiles ex slide, and it seems to work. Problem is that with fast wakeups (maybe slower ones too) you have to guess if they tech roll or not, cuz that changes the timing. I'd still always go for the techroll timing as it's surprisingly difficult to do a wakeup move after kanoball without getting techroll.

Few videos of me testing the timings, with meterless combos you have to wait a split second after the knife toss and with 1bar combos you can start the string pretty much instantly. Against tech roll you have to wait a bit longer in both cases.

Spoiler: Meterless

Spoiler: 1 bar

Jupe, this is brilliant! We definitly need to play some online matches finally!

Btw. the knockdown of standing roll (as a Combo ender) is enough to run in and go for b3~ex buff. The timing is strict, but when done correctly it does beat ex spin.

I like using b3 as it offers the most active frames and the timewindow to catch wakeups is tiny already.

I still think that this setup might lose to slower wakeups (e.g. Predators ex-scimitar).

 

[Solomon Gorondy]

Thanks for setting me straight. For the first time since MKXL, I took Kano's resets back to the lab. I edited my previous post accordingly.

Not worth sacrificing the damage. If you're in commando you can end in jip 22 knife and they have to guess command grab or b13 (or just frame armor).

To clarify: If Blade Throw is +7 on hit and Kano's B1 has 9 start-up frames that implies a 2 frame gap no? and if he uses his 11 frame throw it's a 4 frame gap right? or is the move list wrong yet again?

 

[Red Hood MKX]

Good stuff bro

 

[MsMiharo]

Thanks for setting me straight. For the first time since MKXL, I took Kano's resets back to the lab. I edited my previous post accordingly.



To clarify: If Blade Throw is +7 on hit and Kano's B1 has 9 start-up frames that implies a 2 frame gap no? and if he uses his 11 frame throw it's a 4 frame gap right? or is the move list wrong yet again?

Yeah confused it with ex knives. Back throw is 10f but has a weird hitbox. So it's not a just frame just weird timing since you can't reversal