Strategy - Erron Black Erron Black's Knockdown & Oki Game (post 6-1-15 Hotfix)

[Bildslash]

The 6-1-15 Hotfix pretty much ended with Sand Trap / Tackle's utility as a combo ender unless your plan is to carry the opponent to the corner. The nerf is so bad, you actually have to block/dodge inmediately once you recover whatever wakeup attack the opponent does.

This nerf although certainly meant for Outlaw, it hurts the character as whole across all variations. The idea is to discuss and share findings with regards to EB's oki game: new enders, new setups, frame advantage, punishes, counters, etc.

So far the 3 combo enders I'm considering using to replace Tackle are:

(Outlaw) B+3, 3 xx Tarkatan Stab - pretty obvious

1, 2, 1 - hard knockdown with ~8 frames of advantage

Sand Slide - as suggested by @SonicFox5000

In general the problem now is damage and/or position has to be sacrificed if we want a hard knockdown for oki setups. There's allegedly "hundreds" of knockdown options available out there that weren't explored because Tackle was too good. Well, the only way to find out is to brainstorm this topic.

@xGunShow @Death @Pakman @HeroesNZ @DoctrineDark @STRYKIE

P.S: please tag all other EB players.

 

[bdizzle2700]

@TelekineticBeing

 

[MsMiharo]

F24/F22 (Outlaw) is HKD

 

[Pakman]

242, or standing 4, and for Gunslingers, money shot can also be used for oki follow ups iirc.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Midscreen (Marksman): - End with slide and jump over
- F24 Caltrops
- 121
- 21122 Caltrops
- 21122 Sand Grenade

The last two I used to use a lot pre-hotfix because I liked to frustrate people by sending them fullscreen after every BnB. I guess I'll be using them even more now.

Corner: - Any cancellable normal/string into Caltrops
- All of the above, minus 21122 Sand Grenade

Also you can end with MB Throw and be guaranteed an instant JP2 into 50/50 or pressure.

 

[Bildslash]

Midscreen (Marksman): - End with slide and jump over
- F24 Caltrops
- 121
- 21122 Caltrops
- 21122 Sand Grenade

The last two I used to use a lot pre-hotfix because I liked to frustrate people by sending them fullscreen after every BnB. I guess I'll be using them even more now.

Corner: - Any cancellable normal/string into Caltrops
- All of the above, minus 21122 Sand Grenade

Also you can end with MB Throw and be guaranteed an instant JP2 into 50/50 or pressure.

21122 xx Sand Grenade sounds like a good option worth considering, specially to counter the fact 21122 is tech-rollable.

 

[ienjoywinning]

lol after all that practice ive done with 21122 and it gets nerfed im lucky aren't i

 

[STRYKIE]

I'll see what I can dig up, I have a few ideas for Marksman but I'd rather experiment with them in the lab first.

 

[DownfouralitY]

Talking strictly outlaw, there's literally no reason why you shouldn't end with stab now that tackle got nerfed, before there was a reason to use tackle but now there's not. You can use slide to put them in the corner but that's about it. I don't see how damage is sacrificed either, midscreen stab ender has always done more.

 

[ienjoywinning]

I really hope theres a good ender for marksman erron im really starting to get into his marksman variation

 

[wsj515]

F132 seems like it might be a good ender funny enough, untechable knockdown with great corner carry and good advantage, only problem is getting it to connect.

 

[Bildslash]

Talking strictly outlaw, there's literally no reason why you shouldn't end with stab now that tackle got nerfed, before there was a reason to use tackle but now there's not. You can use slide to put them in the corner but that's about it. I don't see how damage is sacrificed either, midscreen stab ender has always done more.

But this only applies to Outlaw. The other 2 variations are now forced to use/look for a different ender.

F132 seems like it might be a good ender funny enough, untechable knockdown with great corner carry and good advantage, only problem is getting it to connect.

It's not that hard to connect after B32U1 or EX Sand Bomb, NJP. The problem is, damage has to be lost (around 3-5%) in order for it to juggle and connect properly.

 

[ienjoywinning]

But this only applies to Outlaw. The other 2 variations are now forced to use/look for a different ender.


It's not that hard to connect after B32U1 or EX Sand Bomb, NJP. The problem is, damage has to be lost (around 3-5%) in order for it to juggle and connect properly.

Why not do 21122 ct or 21122 slide? I think those are his only good options for the other 2

 

[Bildslash]

Why not do 21122 ct or 21122 slide? I think those are his only good options for the other 2

21122 is good near the corner. Outside of it, it depends whether you mind the opponent tech-rolling. Time will tell what will be Erron's new standard ender.

 

[eTz v reDiahL]

not sure what his most optimal DF2 combo is but try B32U1 NJP run F24 slight run 11 DF2 29% plus stab dmg and nearly as much carry from starting position they will be just outside the corner so if you win the 50/50 after the knock-down you can do corner caltrops dirt

 

[The Farmer]

Well I chose the struggle that is gunslinger so I was already finishing a lot of stuff in slide in order to pop into sos and wait for them to make a decision on wake up

 

[cambros22]

F132 seems like it might be a good ender funny enough, untechable knockdown with great corner carry and good advantage, only problem is getting it to connect.

Marksman you can do 21122 xx Ex Rifleswing RC F24 F132 35%.

It's a bit difficult to land so not sure of viability when playing online. It will launch opponent into corner from mid screen however, you would probably have more hit advantage to work with if using combo closer to corner.

 

[Tenryuga]

I don't play Erron Black but I just stopped by to give you guys props for being proactive and putting in work instead of whining about nerfs. Good shit.

 

[ienjoywinning]

So i think that if we do f24 121 is decent i tried it out with this > f13 bf3ex njp rc 11 211xxdbf2 34% i replaced it with f24 rc 121 and it came out as 31% i tried it with 11 121 and it came out as 30% so its pretty decent i guess
edit: seems like i can only get f24 off sand gernade not ex rifle swing.

Double edit : i can its just abit tighter with sand 11 211 sandtackle it came out as 36% with f24 121 it came out as 34%

Triple edit: i cant seem to land it in meterless ones so the f24 only works with meter

 

[DoctrineDark]

I am preparing some things for erron...

 

[ienjoywinning]

Midscreen (Marksman): - End with slide and jump over
- F24 Caltrops
- 121
- 21122 Caltrops
- 21122 Sand Grenade

The last two I used to use a lot pre-hotfix because I liked to frustrate people by sending them fullscreen after every BnB. I guess I'll be using them even more now.

Corner: - Any cancellable normal/string into Caltrops
- All of the above, minus 21122 Sand Grenade

Also you can end with MB Throw and be guaranteed an instant JP2 into 50/50 or pressure.

How can you land the 21122sand gernade if your using it as an ender i cant seem to pull it off

 

[HeroesNZ]

How can you land the 21122sand gernade if your using it as an ender i cant seem to pull it off

It's a midscreen oki setup. When you do 21122 Sand Grenade it rolls towards them and if they tech roll and block it's pretty plus. If they get hit by the Sand Grenade for whatever reason you can actually run up and connect another 21122.

 

[lionheart21]

F132 seems like it might be a good ender funny enough, untechable knockdown with great corner carry and good advantage, only problem is getting it to connect.

So far, I've only been consistent in hitting this from B2.

 

[STRYKIE]

F132 seems like it might be a good ender funny enough, untechable knockdown with great corner carry and good advantage, only problem is getting it to connect.

After some labbing, I'm also liking F132, dare I say from a juggle I think it's better than old command grab, gives you a lot of breathing space and time to think about your options in Marksman. But I don't think it's systematically possible to connect it from some ranges after a rifle swing unless you meter burn it.

 

[InFlames]

Was labbing oki setups and found this

Thought I discovered a gem but then realized a slight delayed wake-up can actually get you punished. Oh well, could still be useful.