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Do our players really lack fundamentals?

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Okay, in the comments of a recent article, there has been some talk of our community "lacking fundamentals". Okay seriously...wtf is this madness???

I'm tired of seeing this community downplay the fuck out of themselves in comparison to other fighters. Yes, FChamp is hype for Injustice, and yes, he may be sticking around for the long term, as what may happen with other top players from other communities. Does this mean they will automatically dominate?

FUCK NO.

I am tired of this notion that our community is so much worse than others. Inexperienced for the most part? Yes. But not worse, by any means. I keep saying this...you guys sell yourselves short as shit.

Let's go over a few things about MK9, shall we?

Let's get things straight, AAing in just about any other 2D game is EASY compared to MK9. In most 2D fighting games, like Street Fighter for example, AAs will generally be around 6-7 frames AT THE MOST, and will have such favorable hitboxes that makes them very difficult to stuff, and there are even AAs with invincibility frames to make a clean AA even more viable. MK9's AAs are 6 frames AT THE FASTEST. There is NO invincibility, not unless you want to count the AA throws or the armored attacks that require meter. On average, a meterless AA attack is around 9-11f. That is fucking slow. And the hitboxes aren't nearly as forgiving in a number of cases, on top of having fairly quick jumps. It's harder all-around, from a technical standpoint, even if air normals are universal. So it already forces out decent reactions from our players to AA.

In compensation for this, MK9 boasts pretty significant AA damage without meter investment. In something like KOF or SFIV, a meterless AA without a trade is usually not going to net you 20-25%. In MK9, we have characters that will tell you GGPO for jumping. And even if they don't completely rape your life bar, there's a chance at least 1/4 of your life will be stripped. Not to mention, there are a number of characters who have air projectiles that lead to combos, so jumping can be seriously risky at times. This presses the need to be able to advance from the ground in a number of cases.

MK9's blocking is super fucked. Just because you let go of block before blockstun is over, doesn't mean you'll be at the proper frame advantage to attack back. You have to learn to react to a number of attacks and let go of block as fast as possible to prevent blocking issues. Which, if you've played Kabal and Cage enough, is something you will have learned to do. Another case of pushing the urgency to react.

Also, MK9's blocking isn't done by holding back. You have to hold a button. This means that proximity blocking is nonexistant, and, combined with the 2D walkspeeds this game possesses, means that whiff punishing is extremely possible compared to other 2D fighters. This pushes another urgency to be good at spacing your shit.

And then there's counterpoking stuff with only like 20f duration and such small visual cues to go by. That's NOT that easy to really do, and we have players that do it on REACTION (yes, they can be done by reads, but you still have to react to the poke). More ups to your guys' reaction times.

So, if you haven't noticed by now, fundamentally, you guys aren't that bad. In fact, this stuff transfers really well to other fighters. Kid you not, after playing MK9 for so long, I went back to SFIV for a little bit. I'm not kidding, AAs never felt so easy in that game. Jumps looked like total slow-motion for me. Yes, execution likely doesn't transfer entirely since this game has fairly easy execution, but some of the stuff you guys learn, such as doing instant air fireballs as low as you guys do, or playing Kabal at all, does help in other fighters somewhat.

"But Dontay, no top players from other fighters play MK9! We really aren't that well off!" Bullshit. This didn't dawn on to me until he said something, but J360 brought up an EXTREMELY good point to me. If you aren't aware, J360 is an OG Marvel player. And I don't mean that he simply was playing for a while...he literally came up with a bunch of tech for the game and was VERY well known for it all, as well as being a good player. He is one hell of an MK9 player, but if his Marvel experience meant that he was automatically better than everyone, why isn't he as dominant??? Why is it that Blackula, a longtime 3D FG player (trust me, 3D FG experience translates pretty well to MK9), isn't dominating? How did I manage to beat Floe at PowerUp 2011? (Granted, this was early on in the game's lifespan, but seriously, at this point, no one knew everything that was going on with the game, and because Floe had experience over me, he should've won, right?) How is it Arturo wasn't dominating everyone when he was playing a lot??? Ryan Hart should've beat Cookie at EVO2011, should he have not?

Fact is, we've had tons of top players from other games come and play MK9. Did they dominate? Of course not! Again, MK community, stop selling yourselves short just because everyone else does. You guys are way better than you all give yourselves credit for. And with Injustice turning out to be quite different, don't be so ready to jump the gun and say "We're doomed." Because we're not.
 
I dont think a top SF player could pick up the game and after a month or two win a major.. I think our players do have fundamentals but are extremely underrated
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
I'll say this much, if you're serious about playing Scorpion in MK9, ensure you have made several top 8s at EVO beforehand if you actually want to be taken seriously.

Hate it or love it, Slips' fundamentals developed from other games is literally the only remote reason Scorp gets shown any respect, so yeah, outside FGC players will always be instrumental in the development of games that haven't quite come to fruition competitively, but honestly I don't think alot of the game's mechanics were all that well explained and that's why we don't get all that many breakthrough players to begin with, it's a formidable task trying to explain frame data to someone who isn't familiar with how it works, especially in a game that was never intended to put emphasis on studying frame data in the first place. I certainly wouldn't wanna be in Somberness' shoes.
 

SLy

Noob
MK doesnt lack fundamentals at all.. Its just the way we handle our fundamentals is different from the way Guilty gear or Marvel etc. handles theirs.
This is a 2-d Game that's different and not handled the way you would handle a standard Japanese made game.

That's the exact reason why people feel that way... Lets face it. There are no games like MK9 Right now. Our mechanics and the way we have to deal with stuff is not popular and the ideal way many people were brought up to deal with things.

Japanesse fighting games took over the FGC scene for a while before MK9 dropped. everyone is used to these games and fundamentals and see it as the "Standard" way a fighting game should be produced. That's why I honestly think MK went the "Usage of Meter route" to pull more FGC people into the game because we all know it wasn't like that in UMK3 and so forth.

But that's why I feel the MK community is going to have a head start with Injustice. We know the NRS mechanics now.
 

kronspik

Noob
I lol at people who say that we suck because Chris G can place top 8 in our game. You guys realize he often places top in KoF, AE, Skullgirls, and P4 as well right? And I don't think anyone bashes the skill of those communities.
 

Solid

The Longbow Hunter.
Okay, in the comments of a recent article, there has been some talk of our community "lacking fundamentals". Okay seriously...wtf is this madness???

I'm tired of seeing this community downplay the fuck out of themselves in comparison to other fighters. Yes, FChamp is hype for Injustice, and yes, he may be sticking around for the long term, as what may happen with other top players from other communities. Does this mean they will automatically dominate?

FUCK NO.

I am tired of this notion that our community is so much worse than others. Inexperienced for the most part? Yes. But not worse, by any means. I keep saying this...you guys sell yourselves short as shit.

Let's go over a few things about MK9, shall we?

Let's get things straight, AAing in just about any other 2D game is EASY compared to MK9. In most 2D fighting games, like Street Fighter for example, AAs will generally be around 6-7 frames AT THE MOST, and will have such favorable hitboxes that makes them very difficult to stuff, and there are even AAs with invincibility frames to make a clean AA even more viable. MK9's AAs are 6 frames AT THE FASTEST. There is NO invincibility, not unless you want to count the AA throws or the armored attacks that require meter. On average, a meterless AA attack is around 9-11f. That is fucking slow. And the hitboxes aren't nearly as forgiving in a number of cases, on top of having fairly quick jumps. It's harder all-around, from a technical standpoint, even if air normals are universal. So it already forces out decent reactions from our players to AA.

In compensation for this, MK9 boasts pretty significant AA damage without meter investment. In something like KOF or SFIV, a meterless AA without a trade is usually not going to net you 20-25%. In MK9, we have characters that will tell you GGPO for jumping. And even if they don't completely rape your life bar, there's a chance at least 1/4 of your life will be stripped. Not to mention, there are a number of characters who have air projectiles that lead to combos, so jumping can be seriously risky at times. This presses the need to be able to advance from the ground in a number of cases.

MK9's blocking is super fucked. Just because you let go of block before blockstun is over, doesn't mean you'll be at the proper frame advantage to attack back. You have to learn to react to a number of attacks and let go of block as fast as possible to prevent blocking issues. Which, if you've played Kabal and Cage enough, is something you will have learned to do. Another case of pushing the urgency to react.

Also, MK9's blocking isn't done by holding back. You have to hold a button. This means that proximity blocking is nonexistant, and, combined with the 2D walkspeeds this game possesses, means that whiff punishing is extremely possible compared to other 2D fighters. This pushes another urgency to be good at spacing your shit.

And then there's counterpoking stuff with only like 20f duration and such small visual cues to go by. That's NOT that easy to really do, and we have players that do it on REACTION (yes, they can be done by reads, but you still have to react to the poke). More ups to your guys' reaction times.

So, if you haven't noticed by now, fundamentally, you guys aren't that bad. In fact, this stuff transfers really well to other fighters. Kid you not, after playing MK9 for so long, I went back to SFIV for a little bit. I'm not kidding, AAs never felt so easy in that game. Jumps looked like total slow-motion for me. Yes, execution likely doesn't transfer entirely since this game has fairly easy execution, but some of the stuff you guys learn, such as doing instant air fireballs as low as you guys do, or playing Kabal at all, does help in other fighters somewhat.

"But Dontay, no top players from other fighters play MK9! We really aren't that well off!" Bullshit. This didn't dawn on to me until he said something, but J360 brought up an EXTREMELY good point to me. If you aren't aware, J360 is an OG Marvel player. And I don't mean that he simply was playing for a while...he literally came up with a bunch of tech for the game and was VERY well known for it all, as well as being a good player. He is one hell of an MK9 player, but if his Marvel experience meant that he was automatically better than everyone, why isn't he as dominant??? Why is it that Blackula, a longtime 3D FG player (trust me, 3D FG experience translates pretty well to MK9), isn't dominating? How did I manage to beat Floe at PowerUp 2011? (Granted, this was early on in the game's lifespan, but seriously, at this point, no one knew everything that was going on with the game, and because Floe had experience over me, he should've won, right?) How is it Arturo wasn't dominating everyone when he was playing a lot??? Ryan Hart should've beat Cookie at EVO2011, should he have not?

Fact is, we've had tons of top players from other games come and play MK9. Did they dominate? Of course not! Again, MK community, stop selling yourselves short just because everyone else does. You guys are way better than you all give yourselves credit for. And with Injustice turning out to be quite different, don't be so ready to jump the gun and say "We're doomed." Because we're not.
I wish I could double like this.
 

Deyrax

Skarlet who ?
MK doesnt lack fundamentals at all.. Its just the way we handle our fundamentals is different from the way Guilty gear or Marvel etc. handles theirs.
This is a 2-d Game that's different and not handled the way you would handle a standard Japanese made game.

That's the exact reason why people feel that way... Lets face it. There are no games like MK9 Right now.
That is true. No other competetive game has such an ammount of glitches and broken stuff.
 

TotteryManx

cr. HP Master
Well that made a lot more sense seeing it fully written. Kudos! It's not that I think MK players lack fundamentals, but there two different games. Marvel players are use to the Marvel way as we are to MK(some). The majority simply doesn't want to put in work to other games, which I think is the biggest mystery.
 

NKZero

Noob
Not to mention that in this game all normals and most specials do chip. In general you'll generate more chip damage in this game than any other. In Street Fighter you can guard all day and wait to bust out an EX move and break the fuck out. In Marvel you have advancing guard to deal with BS mix-ups or you can air guard so you only have to worry about teching air throws. In KOF yes you have the guard gauge but very rarely is it broken. Defensive options are more lenient in these games. In Tekken you aren't easily opened up for full combos, you just eat a bunch of 20 damages or something which makes up about 10% of the life bar. Launchers are punishable. Also for an opponent to approach you, more often than not, it'll be significantly easier to AA any aerial approaches (in the 2D fighters).

In MK you play against Cage it's scary when you're life is being whittled down and he's building a shit ton of meter. Granted a lot of characters have safe armour but in most cases if you are going to use armour you risk being full combo punished e.g. Reptile/Sub Zero EX slide or Raiden EX shocker etc. MK9 is very punish heavy, you can ill afford to make too many mistakes, maybe much more so in this game than other fighters. If you play Kung Lao not only are you relying on risky AA moves to maybe net 25% versus a full combo blow up of 35%+ but with a character with that much mobility, you'll break your brain trying to second guess where on the screen he'll end up.

This game encourages a very offensive approach mainly due to chip and the general lack of defensive options we have. Yet I think we've done a pretty good job of demonstrating that we can AA very well, we can counter-poke well (which isn't easy), and we can hold on to life leads when the pressure is going tough (which is very tricky as well).

The one thing where you may find it easier in this game is dealing with cross-ups because of the block button. It makes blocking much easier, but guess what? Blocking does chip and builds meter quickly for the opponent. So in some way it balances out somewhat.

Anyways I was just trying to add to THTB's point. Yes execution wise we can't compare to perhaps any other fighter (our execution is simple), but you can't get away with as many mistakes or you can't be as defensive as you want in other games. This game has a unique brand of toughness, and for everyone who has remained competitive and competent in this game, you should give yourselves a pat on the back.

EDIT: Marvel is somewhat limited defensively actually, but still your options as a one on one fighter are easier I reckon.
 

HangNail

TrevarThePastor
I don't think you guys realize how sweet it is that REO and FChamp will be sitting next to each other. TYM is going to blow up when that game is released.
 
Reactions: SLy

SatsuiYesHadou

Yung Kneecaps
Lol when top players from other fighting game communities tried to pick up super scrubby fundamentally challenged mk they got bodied. At least our game has meter management and not whack ass ultras and infinites. In this game if you get hit by an xray its yo damn fault no excuse and at least there's breakers too for a fair but not hella cheap comeback factor