Discussion Discussing the variation system in MKX

[VladMkd]

So it has been a year since the game has come out and I believe this is enough time to at least have a discussion about the implementation of the variation system and how it has worked out so far for the game.

What I find somewhat bewildering is the amount of top players that i hear still say they lost to so and so because they had never versed this variation or were very unfamiliar with it. NOW you could say its their own fault, they could easily practice those variations for themselves. The issue therein lies that you can't get adequate experience without consistently playing against those variations. Also, no one really wants to lab these random variations on the off chance that they MIGHT come across something weird in tournament. One year isn't a long time for a fighting game generally, but in terms of NRS games that is equal to half the games lifespan and going towards final patches. Is the variation system a great long term idea that can extend the games lifespan? Or will NRS support eventually trump the communities attention with a new fighting game release. If history does repeat itself and this game does only last 2ish years then was the variation system a good thing from a competitive standpoint ?

There are 99 variations in this game if i am not mistaken, or equal 100 with triborg. That is 100 characters give or take. Do you feel it should have been 2 variations? Or maybe an actual stance switch option to go between fighting styles somewhat like Wonder Woman and Nightwing so you have that extra layer of depth without causing issues regarding inexperience. Personally it is something I would like to see in the next MKX game with each character feeling fuller instead of being stretched out across 3 different variations (although some are great). Ultimately it doesn't matter because it is a video game that sold very well to a good response and the issues people have do not lie in the variations themselves but rather some of the games design choices.

What are your thoughts ??

 

[Eldriken]

Since three variations per character (four with Triborg) is what we got, I'm okay with the amount that we have. However, when thinking about it, I think if each character only had two variations, there would be a lot less wrong with the game. There would have been less focus on having to balance so many different variations (provided NRS even feels like touching them -_-), and they could instead have worked on some of the other crap that needs attention.

I like the concept of variations because it adds a lot of variety that the game can provide. While this doesn't necessarily mean it will present a lot of variety, the potential is still there. I hope to see them make a return in the next MK game but with better tuning, thought, effort, etc put into them.

I wouldn't mind seeing a variation system of sorts in the next Injustice game. I don't want it to be exactly like variations from MK, but like someone else suggested in another thread on here recently, give us like two different traits to pick from.

As far as people chalking up their losses to not labbing a certain variation, that's their fault. End of story. If they want to blame it on that, then let them. Perhaps they're just saying it because they're salty.

 

[Matix218]

So it has been a year since the game has come out and I believe this is enough time to at least have a discussion about the implementation of the variation system and how it has worked out so far for the game.

What I find somewhat bewildering is the amount of top players that i hear still say they lost to so and so because they had never versed this variation or were very unfamiliar with it. NOW you could say its their own fault, they could easily practice those variations for themselves. The issue therein lies that you can't get adequate experience without consistently playing against those variations. Also, no one really wants to lab these random variations on the off chance that they MIGHT come across something weird in tournament. One year isn't a long time for a fighting game generally, but in terms of NRS games that is equal to half the games lifespan and going towards final patches. Is the variation system a great long term idea that can extend the games lifespan? Or will NRS support eventually trump the communities attention with a new fighting game release. If history does repeat itself and this game does only last 2ish years then was the variation system a good thing from a competitive standpoint ?

There are 99 variations in this game if i am not mistaken, or equal 100 with triborg. That is 100 characters give or take. Do you feel it should have been 2 variations? Or maybe an actual stance switch option to go between fighting styles somewhat like Wonder Woman and Nightwing so you have that extra layer of depth without causing issues regarding inexperience. Personally it is something I would like to see in the next MKX game with each character feeling fuller instead of being stretched out across 3 different variations (although some are great). Ultimately it doesn't matter because it is a video game that sold very well to a good response and the issues people have do not lie in the variations themselves but rather some of the games design choices.

What are your thoughts ??

I do not think that a "switch on the fly" stance switch style of variation switching would be good. I like the idea of having a completely different selectable variation of your favorite character because it gives you more options with your main without having to switch to a totally new character.

I DEFINITELY think that the variation system would be better if they had only done two variations per character. Three variations per character is just too much from a balance and viability (and even creativity from a design standpoint) perspective. Also some of the variations in the game feel tacked on and not as well thought out as others and I think if they focused on just two better thought out variations that were more complete it would lead to a better overall product.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I don't like them because it's very hit and miss. On one hand you have Takeda, Sonya, Jax, Quan, Liu(kinda), Cage(two of them), Reptile, Kotal, Jason, Kano(kinda), Alien where they have three solid variations that benifit their meta(I didn't even list all of them!).... Then you have some like Predator, D'Vorah, Sub, Kenshi(the argument could be made for him having 2 decent), Lao(even tempest is a borderline shitter), Tanya, Tremor(probably even more characters here) where only one variation is good and the others are lackluster. If you buff Sub's strings and normals to make Cryo and Unbreakable better it would make Grandmaster a potential problem. So damned if you do, damned if you don't. Character is sitting with about 6 or 7 3-7 matchups and his fair share of 7-3s all because the variation system screwed him. Same with Crystal Tremor. Have to make his universal moves balls, effectively killing Aftershock with Crystalline being still very good. Screw the variation system because it gives some characters a shit load of utility, and it leaves others will one good one and 2 bad. It's not even NRS's fault, how could we honestly expect them to balance literally 100 variations? The 33 characters would have been much better and more reasonable to balance. I understand that stops Triborg's whole deal, whatever they nerfed him into the ground anyways. That's just my thoughts so take it or leave it.

 

[OutworldKeith]

How many characters change that drastically when another variation is chosen?

Half the cast only have 2 viable or 1 really good variation anyway.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

How many characters change that drastically when another variation is chosen?

Half the cast only have 2 viable or 1 really good variation anyway.

I'd say Takeda in Ronin changes a lot from the others, Sub in any of his, probably a few others.

 

[The PantyChrist]

No more variations. They have a hard enough time balancing a game with 1 variation per character and you get characters with 3 good variations and characters with none

 

[Eldriken]

How many characters change that drastically when another variation is chosen?

Half the cast only have 2 viable or 1 really good variation anyway.

The way Kotal plays in all three variations is something I'd consider a drastic change.

War God results in you having to guess OH/low almost the entire time he's on offense or eating an armored (albeit shitty armor) reversal into good damage and oki when pressuring him.

Then you have Sun God which is more honest than War God because there's ways around his tick throws all day long, but a sensible player will do just fine with them by not being predictable and mixing things up. His parry also aides him in the zoning war which is what hurts War God rather badly.

Then you have probably the best turtle character in the game with Blood God. He can render your zoning useless, mitigate damage on hit and block while building meter as he blocks, absolutely wreck your shit if you're on the wrong end of a Crystal Totem and heal himself if you're too afraid to approach from full screen/have no projectile.

These are all pretty drastic changes in my opinion. When I think of drastic changes with how a character plays based off of their variations, I'm thinking about the tools the variation(s) provide and not the set of tools the character has regardless of their variation.

 

[Matix218]

How many characters change that drastically when another variation is chosen?

Half the cast only have 2 viable or 1 really good variation anyway.

Imo some drastic changes between variations would be:

Commando vs cybernetic Kano

Ronin vs either of Takedas other two variations

Hellfire vs Ninjutsu scorpion

All four of the triborg variations seem fairly unique to the point that they literally seem like individual characters as well.

Those are a few that come to mind at least.

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

I personally love the idea and would love for the system to return, but have it be more polished or with less variations per character for better balance.
there are some characters that I wouldn't have touched if a certain variation wasn't there. Imagine if Kung Jin was only ancestral or Jacqui is only High-Tech? Those are my 2 mains and I can tell you straight up that I wouldn't have touched them even. For the new comers it helped build their character up coz it made us see them in a lot of different playstyle perspectives. With no variations Jacqui would've been a zoner, vortex, or RC pressure character. Instead we have a character that can be any of the 3 in the same game.
In high-level play we end up mainly seeing the best variation that's mostly used by top players but still, the fact that the choice is there is awesome imo.
I also love how some characters got to have tools that are really interesting (Naginata Tanya, Dualist Liu, Hat trick Lao, Ronin Takeda) and some got tools that I never thought I'd see the character have (Inferno Scorps, MoS Raiden, Possessed Kenshi). Some of those weren't implemented that well or didn't turn out as expected, but if it weren't for the variation system they wouldn't have added stuff like that at all or even thought of trying to bring a couple of crazy ideas into the game.

Competitively, it is daunting to have to learn every matchup 3 times and having to face an unknown variation is a frustration I understand, but that is a fault that's fixed by playing more, going to the lab, time overall. At this point in the game tho the oddball/underused variations are rarely something that'll completely throw you off and even casual players know a few things about each variation so I don't see that as a good excuse anymore. It's been a year, lab it up or watch some footage, almost every variation has a few solid players you can watch to study up.

If they bring the system back with 2 variations each and more polish with the universal tools in mind then i think it'll be something to look forward to.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Less variations, more characters.

 

[Matix218]

Less variations, more characters.

Id be totally fine with 24-30 characters with 2 variations each. I think less is more with regards to characters and variations because you will be more likely to get a more balanced and polished final product.

 

[Skedar70]

I love it. I think it gives you more ways to play your character so you it doesn't get boring. I think the game is well balanced except for a few variations that don't have that much dirt. I think every character at least has one variation that is tournament viable and most have at least 2 that are good enough to not feel handicapped. The only exception to this is I believe boraicho since he is so easily zonable in any variations. I think the least used variations should get some buffs to make them good and the game would be perfect. I like 3 variations 2 is not enough variety.

 

[honeybooboo]

Id say add more variaty with each variation. More variation specific strings would be great.

 

[OutworldKeith]

@Eldriken @Matix218
All great points fellas. However, we still have a fair share of characters who's approach stays the same. Reptile is a character that immediately comes to mind.

What are some characters with 3 viable variations? I think Jax is one of said characters.

 

[Eldriken]

Less variations, more characters.

For the sake of balancing, this wouldn't change anything.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Also another failing of the variation system or perhaps nrs character design in general is how to make trap type characters good.

But it could also be by design.
I couldn't imagine the casual outcry if they had a launch Kan Ra type character in the game

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Also another failing of the variation system or perhaps nrs character design in general is how to make trap type characters good.

But it could also be by design.
I couldn't imagine the casual outcry if they had a launch Kan Ra type character in the game

The people on ranked already fucking hate Sub-Zero and Predator. Can't imagine what they would do with Kan Ra, Glacius, or if Lex was actually high tier. God forbid.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

For the sake of balancing, this wouldn't change anything.

I respectfully disagree. It's impossible to buff Subs shit variations to being sufficiently good by giving him actual plus strings because then he would be able lock you the hell out in Grandmaster way worse, so Cryo and Unbreakable are fucked over. You can't buff Give Tremor his Uprock and OTG back because Crystal is still really good, but it screws over Metallic and Aftershock. Predator having his standing 3 mid back would give HQT a very powerful 50/50 so they aren't gonna screw with that, but as a result the character gets poked out of everything and it hurts Hunter and Warrior even more because of HQT's far superior neutral. Completely separate characters would enable NRS to balance more freely and give characters what they actually need because the low to low-mid variations like Unbreakable, Hunter, and Metallic wouldn't have a symbiotic relationship with more powerful variations like Grandmaster, HQT, and Crystalline respectively. I can hardly fault NRS, this was a very ambitious thing that I actually loved at the start and up until around the XL patch, but it works for some characters, and not for there.

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

What are some characters with 3 viable variations? I think Jax is one of said characters.

Jax, Kotal, Alien, Kano, Ermac, Takeda

Arguable: Cassie, Mileena, Kitana, Jacqui, F/T?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Jax, Kotal, Alien, Kano, Ermac, Takeda

Arguable: Cassie, Mileena, Kitana, Jacqui, F/T?

F/T and Kitana definitely. Idk too much about the others.

 

[Gooberking]

I'm a big fan of the whole thing. I think it brings a lot of options and variety to the table, but beyond that it gives characters more chances to be the character you want them to be, and opportunities to be useful in some regard. Cassie was a major draw for me and if Spec Ops was all they came up with or locked me into, I think I would have been majorly bummed about the character. I might have been happy playing HW, but then there was Brawler and it's where I really found what I was looking for. It is frustrating when you want to like a character, but something isn't working with them or they blew their one shot at being a good character.

I do think 3 variations ends up being a lot to handle by the numbers. It feels good at the casual level to have all three options, but it has to complicate balancing dramatically and be difficult to learn MU wise at a competitive level. I doubt any other game has ever had to juggle so many situations as MKX has to deal with. I think 2 would feel a bit limiting as a player, but it would probably strike a better cost/benefit ratio than 3 does and it's something I would like to see explored with the same level of effort as MKX put into 3.

The whole stance switching thing like Nightwing does that was mentioned isn't a real alternative to variations as far as I'm concerned. It's something that has been done lots of times by lots of games, and even been extensively explored in older MK games. I've never felt like it provides a similar experience or even positive experience. At the end of the day it's still one character. One character with more stuff you have to learn to use. With variations you don't have to learn more stuff, and you are free to invest your time in learning one off variations before moving onto another character. Stance switching forces you to know and use stuff that may not suit you, and for me it often causes a lot of extra discomfort in learning a character, and can even make them too complicated. Stance switching has extra memory and technical barriers built in that variations don’t have.

 

[Matix218]

@Eldriken @Matix218
All great points fellas. However, we still have a fair share of characters who's approach stays the same. Reptile is a character that immediately comes to mind.

What are some characters with 3 viable variations? I think Jax is one of said characters.

Ermac, Kotal, Alien, and Quan seem to be characters that have all three variations that are pretty solid IMO

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

It's definitely a tough topic to discuss, with plenty of pro's and cons for the system. On top of that, it's hard to truly evaluate how this game would feel if it did have just 2 or no variations per character.

My first thought is that it's a system that strongly favours the character loyalist. For anyone who is really set on just playing one character that they love, the variation system gives them a chance to try different styles of their character and potentially cover a wider matchup spread with just that character (Quan for example can cover most matchups with one of his three variations). But then you have to consider if adding variations really helps deal with matchups, since you're potentially introducing simply more favourable or unfavourable matchups due to other character's variations too (maybe it averages out, maybe it skews matchup spread.) It is nice to have multiple playstyles within a particular character, but maybe if they'd focussed more on really polishing one design for a character we'd see more unique approaches to each of the characters (as opposed to relying on the variation to dictate how we approach a matchup). There is of course room for creativity in MKX, but why be creative if we have variations that don't force us to try new things?

This brings me to another issue. Finding content for the lesser played variations in this game is next to impossible due to the spread of players among characters and variations. Take Dualist Liu Kang for example. Really interest design conceptually that could be pushed to its limits if people had more reason to play it (either it was only variation or one of two), but since Kang has 2 more reliable variations we only have @FOREVER EL1TE's content if we wanna see Dualist. Because of this, seeing the niche variations in tournament is super hype but with this it's also utterly dull seeing the same variations of a single character at times. A more fleshed out, single variation would likely limit this effect. What if we had 2 variations, but removed variation lock from tournament standard? That could keep things potentially fresh, with a reason to legitimately use more than one variation of a character, while adding unique designs for a single character and also reducing the matchup spread. Things could be much more interesting.

I'm personally not someone who is loyal to any one character, so I'd prefer a cast of around 24 truly unique characters for me to mess with. I think that's a reasonable amount of characters that, if designed right, will satisfy every players needs (but let's be honest, NRS will continue to populate the roster with too many characters. There's too much demand for literally all of the MK roster on twitter). Right now I have a hard time practicing 3 variations of Quan + 2 of Goro because there's too many potential matchups to try. I'd much rather just have matchups I prefer with Quan and those I prefer with Goro but it's difficult to find time to test 5 variations per matchup just to find what's best for me.

I'm sure there's more I wanted to add that I've forgotten, but I'll leave it at this for now.

 

[villainous monk]

The introduction on the variation systems in MKXL was a very good idea and should be in the next mk game as well.

I think 2 max is better leaving the character vanilla to make it still 3 but 2 max is more then enough.

If it could some how be stance switched like MKDA, MKD, & MKA would be great but would require far more balancing because now the hole character's moves specials, normals, and boxes needs to aslo be adjusted.

Now If it could be done considering the technology has come a very long way since those previous games them I see know reason it can't be done. It would be just like the earlier titles that introduced variations in the first place so again why not.

Mortal kombat is a game that needs to keep evolving to something new every time. It's the only fighting game that does this with such a big way that it really does set the bar for other fighters to match it to a degree. So I think variations are and should be a key going forward just has much has x rays and alities.

I can see and understand that it might be overwhelming or unpopular for some to most but this particular game is built to live for more then a few years. Because your not learning 1 particular character.

No. Your learning 3 to 100.

So if most can't handle that and what comes with that with all the technical aspects and knowledge of MKXL then a game where you have 20-35 more characters is a game for them then.

I believe. And I can say this with the upmost pride and sincerity that MKXL is now very much the technical game that it as aspired to be.

You can thank the multiple variations each character has and creative minds nrs has that made this game bigger then ever.

So why not embrace it.

Variations are here to stay.