Question - Demolition Demolition changes in possible future patch

[errormacro7]

Straight to the point...

- Stun grenade goes away when she's hit.

Demolition is a very strong variation right now, but that's pretty much the only thing I can see them nerfing. I think she'll be ok after this, still top tier. Her oki in the corner is pretty unfair, but it's unlikely that they're gonna take it away because release check is a basic feature in the game and she can still do that even with release check off. They already stealth nerfed it so she can no longer reload twice in the same combo. And as it stands, Demo Sonya doesn't outright lose to anyone.

Any more suggestions? Be reasonable!

Discuss.

@Jer
@FCP/EMP SCAR
@Ayase Chihaya
@jmt
@Orbit Aquary
@scarsunseen
@Gustavness
@ESP-_BLACK
@Mykal NS

 

[gam224]

ex reload goes away when you are hit

 

[colby4898]

What if they were to limit the number of grenades used in a combo, like they did with bombs for cyrax. Make it so you can only 3 in a combo.
I don't use her so I'm not sure how much of a difference that would even makem just an idea.

 

[errormacro7]

What if they were to limit the number of grenades used in a combo, like they did with bombs for cyrax. Make it so you can only 3 in a combo.
I don't use her so I'm not sure how much of a difference that would even makem just an idea.

Hmm, I never thought about that, and that would make some difference indeed but not big. She wouldn't be able to do 6 grenade combos anymore, and she wouldn't be able to do that reload combo in the corner using 4 grenades, only 3.
But to be honest, anything with more than 3 or 4 grenades has a lot of scaling and isn't viable unless it's for the kill, so it's unlikely that they're gonna implement that too. They already nerfed the damage.

 

[jmt]

I honestly don't think they are gonna change anything

 

[errormacro7]

I honestly don't think they are gonna change anything

Why?

Stun grenade trades have always been a thing with this variation but now that Scar has exposed this in tournaments, people are only complaining one year later. The amount of hate this character gets. lmao

 

[jmt]

Why?

Stun grenade trades have always been a thing with this variation but now that Scar has exposed this in tournaments, people are only complaining one year later. The amount of hate this character gets. lmao

Exactly why I don't think they are gonna change it.

It has always been a thing with demo. I think that is a pretty massive nerf and I don't think they are gonna change it this far into the games life because scrubs wanna cry about it.

I think NRS knows how hard she is to play at the highest level and they are good with it.

 

[IrishMantis]

My suggestions would be (on Stun grenades only)
-decrease the the blast radius of them
-increase the scaling a little
-and make them teachable when knocked down

Not my suggestion but sonebody said it before

-remove the ability to be able to special cancel Ex Grenades

Honestly I'm not too sure

 

[myri]

The hitbox on nades could use some adjusting.

 

[Gustavness]

@errormacro7 Thanks for the tag, ill take it you want my opinion...and if not, you're gonna get it anyway

Everyone said i was crazy when i said she was S tier, and now here we are...

The problem is that she was already hit with heavy nerfs. The loss of bouncing grenades in the corner, and the loss of input buffer was massive. Combined with increased scaling and the addition of mandatory detonates when using delayed NE or EX reload, she is nowhere near as powerful as she was pre-patch. People are just now seeing how strong NE truly is with this character, but you'll have to take my word for it when I say that input buffer was just as strong and waaaaaay more powerful than 6 grenades in the corner before the patch (I should have waited until after the patch before I released that )

This also doesn't take into account that the combos that people are doing midscreen currently aren't optimized. 1 grenade 1 bar 47%? No one even uses her inescapable 20% reverse throw tech! People are complaining about the wrong things, I think. Even if stun goes away on hit you can still do starters with frag and get the same stuff with some tweaks. To have the effect you want means you would have to completely redesign her mechanics and she was already re-coded heavily.

Bottom line is if you change grenades now any more than you already have, it neuters her. She would go from S Tier to B, at best. I think the solution might be in the normals if you want to slightly de-power her. Change it from OH/Low to OH/Mid, and then increase the startup frames juuuuust slightly for B+1 and B+3. It would solve a lot of dirty shit she has.

Or, NRS can get better testers. Ferra is still fucking broken since the beginning of the game, shit is just inexcusable. And who the hell signed off on Alien release in the state he was in? I haven't played in a while, but when I do i just get irritated at things like that.

End Rant.

 

[Pokref]

Guys I main tremor and if they nerfed the shit out of tremor they can do the same with sonya they don't give a shit how long you play. They only care about scrubs #scrubslivesmatter

 

[Helter Skelter]

I try not to post these too often but here we are:

Stun Grenades do 3% damage.
This is massively important at the moment. There needs to be a clear cut reason choose one grenade over the other and Frag Grenade needs no improvements.

Stun Grenades deplete two out of your three Grenades, but you can use you last Grenade as a Stun.
The max about of times you can use a Stun Grenade for pressure, oki, defense, trip guard, anti-air, etc. Is twice before you need to reload.

Those are the only changes I would suggest. Still gets to keep her game but the reward is lower and the resource coats more.

 

[errormacro7]

@errormacro7 Thanks for the tag, ill take it you want my opinion...and if not, you're gonna get it anyway

Everyone said i was crazy when i said she was S tier, and now here we are...

The problem is that she was already hit with heavy nerfs. The loss of bouncing grenades in the corner, and the loss of input buffer was massive. Combined with increased scaling and the addition of mandatory detonates when using delayed NE or EX reload, she is nowhere near as powerful as she was pre-patch. People are just now seeing how strong NE truly is with this character, but you'll have to take my word for it when I say that input buffer was just as strong and waaaaaay more powerful than 6 grenades in the corner before the patch (I should have waited until after the patch before I released that )

This also doesn't take into account that the combos that people are doing midscreen currently aren't optimized. 1 grenade 1 bar 47%? No one even uses her inescapable 20% reverse throw tech! People are complaining about the wrong things, I think. Even if stun goes away on hit you can still do starters with frag and get the same stuff with some tweaks. To have the effect you want means you would have to completely redesign her mechanics and she was already re-coded heavily.

Bottom line is if you change grenades now any more than you already have, it neuters her. She would go from S Tier to B, at best. I think the solution might be in the normals if you want to slightly de-power her. Change it from OH/Low to OH/Mid, and then increase the startup frames juuuuust slightly for B+1 and B+3. It would solve a lot of dirty shit she has.

Or, NRS can get better testers. Ferra is still fucking broken since the beginning of the game, shit is just inexcusable. And who the hell signed off on Alien release in the state he was in? I haven't played in a while, but when I do i just get irritated at things like that.

End Rant.

I agre 100%.

 

[errormacro7]

So you guys think stun grenade should have more scaling (it has been nerfed twice already, just sayin'), should do 3% and you can only use two?


Damn it, might as well remove this character from the game altogether.

 

[jmt]

I agre 100%.

I agree mostly except for the change to oh/mid and increasing the startup frames. No way.

 

[jmt]

So you guys think stun grenade should have more scaling (it has been nerfed twice already, just sayin'), should do 3% and you can only use two?


Damn it, might as well remove this character from the game altogether.

Yea, those ideas are crazy. She would be the worst character in the game if that happened.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Sonya:
- Jump 1 slightly normalized.
- Dive Kick no longer auto corrects.
- Dive Kick no longer has any pushback for the opponent on block.
- Dive Kick on block now causes Sonya to land closer to the opponent.
- Beat Up (B+1,4) string now has a consistent 1 frame gap regardless of distance.

Demolition
- Stun Grenades can no longer be detonated if Sonya is being hit, and it then becomes disarmed and does not explode on it's own.
- Stun Grenades no longer grant a hard knock down on hit.
- Stun Grenades have slightly reduced block stun now.
- Frag Grenades are unchanged and can still be detonated regardless if Sonya is being hit or not.
- Frag Grenades keep the same block stun.

Special Forces:
- Drone Homing Missile (BLK+2) can now be properly reflected by certain special attacks that could not reflect it before.
- Drone Homing Missile (BLK+2) now does 1% chip on block.

 

[errormacro7]

These changes are perfect, but what I'd tweak is stun grenade cannot be detonated when she's hit BUT it stays on screen and detonates on its own.

You know, I personally think she's unfair with those stun grenade trades. Kenshi, GM Subzero, Summoner Quan and Bo rai cho are probably 7-3 MUs in her favor. The major reason why she's S tier today is because Summoner, Tempest, Kobu Jutsu, Hollywood got butchered and aren't S tier anymore. And Sonya, especially Demolition, was always a solid A+ tier variation that ended up taking that spot and honestly, 95% of what you call broken today she always had and seeing people complaining about it at this point pisses me the hell off. It's soap bar in my mouth. Or better yet, it's a fuckin' soap factory in my mouth. Just disable her ability to detonate the grenades when she's hit, done. More nerfs will make her Tanya tier.

 

[FCP/EMP SCAR]

Balance Changes : Git Gud

 

[errormacro7]

Balance Changes : Git Gud

PREACH

 

[Airvidal]

So you guys think stun grenade should have more scaling (it has been nerfed twice already, just sayin'), should do 3% and you can only use two?


Damn it, might as well remove this character from the game altogether.

She needs scaling. She does 38% midscreen meterless. No character should be able to do this type of damage without a bar.

I main Sonya, and I think she's an amazing character but nerfing her damage in ALL her combos would balance things out.

I wouldn't nerf anything else.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

These changes are perfect, but what I'd tweak is stun grenade cannot be detonated when she's hit BUT it stays on screen and detonates on its own.

You know, I personally think she's unfair with those stun grenade trades. Kenshi, GM Subzero, Summoner Quan and Bo rai cho are probably 7-3 MUs in her favor. The major reason why she's S tier today is because Summoner, Tempest, Kobu Jutsu, Hollywood got butchered and aren't S tier anymore. And Sonya, especially Demolition, was always a solid A+ tier variation that ended up taking that spot and honestly, 95% of what you call broken today she always had and seeing people complaining about it at this point pisses me the hell off. It's soap bar in my mouth. Or better yet, it's a fuckin' soap factory in my mouth. Just disable her ability to detonate the grenades when she's hit, done. More nerfs will make her Tanya tier.

Naah. She deserves all those nerfs that @YOMI REO has proposed

Sonya:
- Jump 1 slightly normalized.

Her JI1 is insane! It has a very weird hit/hurt box and its active frames stays for soooo long...

- Dive Kick no longer auto corrects.
- Dive Kick no longer has any pushback for the opponent on block.
- Dive Kick on block now causes Sonya to land closer to the opponent.

It's hard as fuck to anti-air her dive kick and when you block it, it has an stupid pushback

- Beat Up (B+1,4) string now has a consistent 1 frame gap regardless of distance.

It's very stupid when she does her B+1,4 and I'll punish the gap, but there is no gap because of the distance, so I take the hit

Demolition
- Stun Grenades can no longer be detonated if Sonya is being hit, and it then becomes disarmed and does not explode on it's own.

- Stun Grenades have slightly reduced block stun now.

No more safe-ish 50/50s.

- Stun Grenades no longer grant a hard knock down on hit.

No more safe reloads by using the stun grenade.

- Frag Grenades are unchanged and can still be detonated regardless if Sonya is being hit or not.
- Frag Grenades keep the same block stun.

The frag grenades would have a very good purpose.

Special Forces:
- Drone Homing Missile (BLK+2) can now be properly reflected by certain special attacks that could not reflect it before.
- Drone Homing Missile (BLK+2) now does 1% chip on block.

Let me reflect it, please

 

[Jer]

I try not to post these too often but here we are:

Stun Grenades do 3% damage.
This is massively important at the moment. There needs to be a clear cut reason choose one grenade over the other and Frag Grenade needs no improvements.

Stun Grenades deplete two out of your three Grenades, but you can use you last Grenade as a Stun.
The max about of times you can use a Stun Grenade for pressure, oki, defense, trip guard, anti-air, etc. Is twice before you need to reload.

Those are the only changes I would suggest. Still gets to keep her game but the reward is lower and the resource coats more.

This is the craziest thing I've ever read

 

[Harlequin969]

Can we also work on the hitbox of the stun grenades a tiny bit. I saw some things at Evo that literally did not make sense for the grande to still hit. Outside of that I'd defer to what REO said.

 

[errormacro7]

Naah. She deserves all those nerfs that @YOMI REO has proposed



Her JI1 is insane! It has a very weird hit/hurt box and its active frames stays for soooo long...



It's hard as fuck to anti-air her dive kick and when you block it, it has an stupid pushback



It's very stupid when she does her B+1,4 and I'll punish the gap, but there is no gap because of the distance, so I take the hit





No more safe-ish 50/50s.



No more safe reloads by using the stun grenade.



The frag grenades would have a very good purpose.



Let me reflect it, please

Alright, so let me give you my own nerf suggestions:

- B14 and B332 is -50000 on block and when it hits, she actually takes damage.
- She starts with no grenades and she can no longer combo off of a stun grenade.
- She only builds a bar of meter when she loses a round, so she'll never have her Xray.
- Whenever she does a divekick on hit, block or whiff, she freezes right there until you hit her.

Would she be easier to deal with after these suggestions? Or does she need more?