Data gathering for new guide: How do you develop reads?

[countrypistol]

As the title suggests, I want to create a new thread for beginners (and up) to help understand what to look for when developing reads.

If you have an idea on the matter (or a question relating to your struggles developing reads) please post it below. I'm going to let this thread run for a while before compiling a guide, but I assure you I will make it.

(I want to finish the Kano guide and the 1 hour practice guide first)

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Developing reads is just taking notes of what your opponent does in a certain situation.

For example, Ermac and Jacqui.

Every time the Ermac would block the low shot, the Jacqui player will backdash. Causing Ermac's punish to whiff.

Now, chances are if they do a low shot on block again... They will backdash.

So the Ermac player runs and then punishes the backdash instead of just trying to punish

 

[StealthyMuffin]

Good observations are the core of a dope read. If you want to predict what your opponent will do next, you have to look at what they've done in the past.

 

[countrypistol]

How much read building do you feel is based on pre-assumed traits and common strategies employed by the average [insert character name here] player, and how much is based on actually player tendencies observed during a match?

Also, do you notice a decreased ability to make reads when playing as a new character?

 

[Agilaz]

How much read building do you feel is based on pre-assumed traits and common strategies employed by the average [insert character name here] player, and how much is based on actually player tendencies observed during a match?

Also, do you notice a decreased ability to make reads when playing as a new character?

I would say it's about 70% character knowledge and 30% players knowledge. Even if you don't adapt to a player's unique playstyle, you can still make good reads purely by knowing what the character is capable of. Most tech is available to everybody to examine, so everybody can sit down and study it.

This also plays into making worse reads with a new character. It's harder to make good reads when you're not entirely familiar with what your own character can do.

 

[llabslb]

Recognise your options, your opponents options. The most reasonable option to use in a given situation, your opponents mind set and behaviour. Understand these and you should be able to produce a calculated read.

 

[Infinite]

I tend to focus on key moments that I can exploit, that are generally tied to situations that are generally safe for me.

In certain matchups my opponent might have only a couple options against a full or 3/4 screen sand grenade, they could parry it, jump it, armor slide, w.e. I take note and try to reconstruct the same situation, could be almost instantly, could be near the end of the game and I try to get them to do it again...

I bring this point up though because I remember a match between Sonicfox and Tyrant where Fox does just this type of sand grenade ploy and on the first pass tyrant forward jumps and ground pound cancels, then Fox immediately sets up another and gets Tyrant to forward jump, Sonic tries to jip on the ground pound, but eats a d2. So this really comes down to knowing the calibur of player you're facing, expecting them to make reads on you as well, aka Yomi layers.

Of course there are more situations than just projectile spams; I'd like to think depending on what level you play at and maybe what kind of mood or personality you are playing against, you can weight certain situations higher than others. Impatient or inexperienced players I might try to bait a dumb wake up and on players near my level I like to force a reaction from a frame trap or tick throw.

Just as important as developing reads is understanding the most effective punishment, I'm still weak in this area. Look forward to what you can produce.

 

[JesterSMX]

Look up the definition of "Yomi." It meant something different before April.

For me, reads come from several different sources but in the end it's a little voice that says "he's going to do this... so do this..."

You know what their character's options are in a particular scenario and you know what you can do to stop each one. Then you keep tabs on what he's done throughout the match. You combine the two and basically think "If I was him I would do this..." and that is the "read."

 

[Eddy Wang]

Question "If i were fighting myself what would i do in such situation?"


A good way to make reads is to know the weakness of your gameplans, if you know possible escapes out of your gameplans, you will make dope reads by countering measures against your own self. Once you start to spot the opponent's tendencies to outread you game, is where you will start to blow them up.

 

[countrypistol]

This is all great stuff so far.

One thing I'd like to know is whether you have certain moments in a match where you make a point to look for information, and if there are some moments where you purposefully disregard information (I doubt that there are moments that apply to the later too often, but I don't want to influence the conversation with my own bias)?

 

[xZoro]

To develop your reads, you must be evaluating all the what ifs of any given situation. Then you have to mix that with your opponents tendencies. Then you can read them

 

[llabslb]

This thread is starting to look more and more philosophical as more posts come in.

 

[Tony at Home]

We tend to form habbits at a faster rate than we can realize what habbits we've formed.

It's often difficult to realize you press D3 after EVERY blocked +2 string because you're so used to it.

Making a read is just noticing the opponent has formed an exploitable habbit before they realize it and can adjust their pattern to remain unpredictable.

I'm of the opinion that naturally it happens more often that our habbits are sniffed out before we realize we have them. Like writing a paper, you often need a "second set of eyes" or other person to proof-read because your mistakes are invisible to yourself due to over-familiarity.

 

[Infinite]

We tend to form habbits at a faster rate than we can realize what habbits we've formed.

It's often difficult to realize you press D3 after EVERY blocked +2 string because you're so used to it.

Making a read is just noticing the opponent has formed an exploitable habbit before they realize it and can adjust their pattern to remain unpredictable.

I'm of the opinion that naturally it happens more often that our habbits are sniffed out before we realize we have them. Like writing a paper, you often need a "second set of eyes" or other person to proof-read because your mistakes are invisible to yourself due to over-familiarity.

Building on this, naturally I believe the highest level of play would involve a lot of intentional conditioning. It's probably more noticeable in SFIV atm but, you can sacrifice health or rounds just to build on training your opponent... and again Justin Wong proved people can be purposefully resistant and get eat up by his lows.

 

[OmeMark]

Maybe also a part about: How can you prevent yourself the best from being readed by the opponent. Since I play Kano CT I don't read at all. Full offense!

 

[MAN0]

Well I guess a good way to start, is to observe the opponent's defense tendencies rather than their offense. What they do to escape pressure, corners etc.. That gives you more leverage imo.

 

[countrypistol]

Maybe also a part about: How can you prevent yourself the best from being readed by the opponent. Since I play Kano CT I don't read at all. Full offense!

As for the first part, I'll see what I can do to cover this, but that is a very advanced concept, and likely doesn't manifest itself in the manner you think it might.

I'm more interested in your second point. Do you ever find yourself in matches where you have absolutely no idea how you lost? Do you find yourself coming up against tactics that seem cheap or overpowered? Do you find that sometimes you'll get hit with the same move over and over again?

I'd really appreciate honest answers to these questions. It's players like yourself who are new to fighting games that I want to help, so understanding where and how you struggle would really help me.

 

[GQJ]

As the title suggests, I want to create a new thread for beginners (and up) to help understand what to look for when developing reads.

If you have an idea on the matter (or a question relating to your struggles developing reads) please post it below. I'm going to let this thread run for a while before compiling a guide, but I assure you I will make it.

(I want to finish the Kano guide and the 1 hour practice guide first)

Firstly, thank you so much for making this thread. I am a beginner trying to improve my game.

One thing that I have quickly noticed when playing is that even thought I may have a character that has the ability to pressure, I cannot assume that my opponent has thought about those abilities, so even if there is a situation where I am plus on block (although I have learned there are negative frame traps), I get hit by pokes if I pressure with a high string. So it seems that I would need an additional threat (eg. A poke) to condition their opponent to block to THEN initiate pressure.

My question is how is this executed? Is it a circumstance where you objective is to lose pressure by poking just so you can collect more information about the opponent in the long run? Or are there ways to detect how an opponent will react to a particular string on block from the neutral. Are there strings whose only function is to allow you to scout your opponent’s tendencies?

players near my level I like to force a reaction from a frame trap or tick throw

Do you mind going into detail about this?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Just an aside that there's no shortcut to this.. Most of the players who make the best reads, play a LOT -- tons and tons of matches, lots of long sets, etc.

It seems cerebral, but a lot of it is playing so many matches that your opponents' tendencies start to become logical/obvious to you as a way of habit.

The other thing that helps is watching an awful lot of tournament play, and breaking things down; you'll pick up on the 'meta' of how people play certain characters and what kinds of tactics are successful. So the common factor in both cases is ingesting a lot of information, to the point that subconsciously your mind starts to automatically predict what's coming next.

 

[countrypistol]

Firstly, thank you so much for making this thread. I am a beginner trying to improve my game.

One thing that I have quickly noticed when playing is that even thought I may have a character that has the ability to pressure, I cannot assume that my opponent has thought about those abilities, so even if there is a situation where I am plus on block (although I have learned there are negative frame traps), I get hit by pokes if I pressure with a high string. So it seems that I would need an additional threat (eg. A poke) to condition their opponent to block to THEN initiate pressure.

My question is how is this executed? Is it a circumstance where you objective is to lose pressure by poking just so you can collect more information about the opponent in the long run? Or are there ways to detect how an opponent will react to a particular string on block from the neutral. Are there strings whose only function is to allow you to scout your opponent’s tendencies?




Do you mind going into detail about this?

There is an element to reading your opponent when addressing pressure situations, but there could also be an element of you either a) overestimating your character's pressure options, b) using the wrong pressure options at the wrong time and/or c) underestimating your opponent's understanding of the game. I'll attempt to touch on pressure situations when I compile the guide, but in the mean time I would suggest recording these matches and taking them to the character forums for critique.

One thing to note about highs is that they whiff on several characters when they crouch block (mostly women and ninjas). If you're being low poked in these situations, it's not because your opponent isn't aware of your pressure, it's because they know how to low profile your attacks and shut your pressure down.

 

[countrypistol]

Just an aside that there's no shortcut to this.. Most of the players who make the best reads, play a LOT -- tons and tons of matches, lots of long sets, etc.

It seems cerebral, but a lot of it is playing so many matches that your opponents' tendencies start to become logical/obvious to you as a way of habit.

The other thing that helps is watching an awful lot of tournament play, and breaking things down; you'll pick up on the 'meta' of how people play certain characters and what kinds of tactics are successful. So the common factor in both cases is ingesting a lot of information, to the point that subconsciously your mind start's to automatically predict what's coming next.

This is absolutely something I intend to address early on. There is no substitute for experience, but experience is a double edged sword as it will solidify both good and bad habits. I think some of these bad habits are what make it difficult for some players to really focus on the match and gather information.

I don't want to elaborate too much simply because I don't want to influence the thread, but if the responses end validating my suspicions the guide will be tailored towards breaking these habits. If my suspicions are proved wrong, the guide will end up as something different, but still (I hope) useful.

 

[GQJ]

There is an element to reading your opponent when addressing pressure situations, but there could also be an element of you either a) overestimating your character's pressure options, b) using the wrong pressure options at the wrong time and/or c) underestimating your opponent's understanding of the game. I'll attempt to touch on pressure situations when I compile the guide, but in the mean time I would suggest recording these matches and taking them to the character forums for critique.

One thing to note about highs is that they whiff on several characters when they crouch block (mostly women and ninjas). If you're being low poked in these situations, it's not because your opponent isn't aware of your pressure, it's because they know how to low profile your attacks and shut your pressure down.

Yeah, I acknowledged your bullet points, I know I already do some/all of these things wrong. But I want to better understand other people’s approaches with examples, even if they play other characters than I do. I have watched/read basic guides on other characters that I do not play not so I can master those other characters, but so I can have a better sense of how they play, then compare those tactics with my character to see what works or not (theoretically), then see how it works in matches.

Yes, the opponent could be aware of my pressure. Or they could be mashing buttons. Or I could be misunderstanding the concept of pressure. That does not mean that my execution or reads are impeccable, far from it, I suck, I know. But I do not think I could apply the same strategy to counter both types of players, and would there be a process that I could develop to understand if my opponent understands my options.

As far as highs that whiff on certain characters, that makes sense, But what if the string does hit on crouch block, but I still get poked out?

Keep in mind I am not here for shortcuts, sometimes I feel that the assumption here is that newcomers believe that there is a button that magically initiates pressure or provides the correct option of a 50/50. I already know that watching tape and playing matches will improve my game. I also know that there will be limitations because of the experience/practice time that other players have.

 

[Kingshootahz]

I need to read this cuz when you play jax yoyyou sometimes go fuck reads , fuck footsies,fuck mind games , get to the corner mofo and stay the fuck there! Then I yolo 123 and hope for an armor stuff

 

[countrypistol]

Yeah, I acknowledged your bullet points, I know I already do some/all of these things wrong. But I want to better understand other people’s approaches with examples, even if they play other characters than I do. I have watched/read basic guides on other characters that I do not play not so I can master those other characters, but so I can have a better sense of how they play, then compare those tactics with my character to see what works or not (theoretically), then see how it works in matches.

Yes, the opponent could be aware of my pressure. Or they could be mashing buttons. Or I could be misunderstanding the concept of pressure. That does not mean that my execution or reads are impeccable, far from it, I suck, I know. But I do not think I could apply the same strategy to counter both types of players, and would there be a process that I could develop to understand if my opponent understands my options.

As far as highs that whiff on certain characters, that makes sense, But what if the string does hit on crouch block, but I still get poked out?

Keep in mind I am not here for shortcuts, sometimes I feel that the assumption here is that newcomers believe that there is a button that magically initiates pressure or provides the correct option of a 50/50. I already know that watching tape and playing matches will improve my game. I also know that there will be limitations because of the experience/practice time that other players have.

A poke will only hit you out of your pressure if the frame data allows it, if your executution is off or if the move whiffs due to the character low profiling it. The first two can be practiced in training mode, the third can only be over come by adjusting your play style or by counter picking.

I feel that my previous suggestion of recording your play and putting it up for critique on the relevant character forum will really help you. It can be daunting, exposing yourself like that, but if you can get over that mental hurdle you can really reap the benefits.

If you're struggling with any element of frame data at all and how to utilise it in actual match play, send me a PM and I'll do what I can to help you.

 

[countrypistol]

I need to read this cuz when you play jax yoyyou sometimes go fuck reads , fuck footsies,fuck mind games , get to the corner mofo and stay the fuck there! Then I yolo 123 and hope for an armor stuff

I'm guilty of that with Jax too!

This might seem like an odd question, but I can't think of a better way to phrase it; How do the matches play out when your yolo approach goes wrong? (Feel free to answer either purely in terms of the characters on screen, or what goes on in your head, or both).