Breakthrough - Scorpion D4 hit at point blank range only guarantees F3. Max range you get nothing, armour beats all options

[Derptile]

Isn't Scorpion's D4 the same as Kano's and Predator's?

 

[JTB123]

It's not a big deal. This has been pretty common for me to deal with for quite some time now. I never thought of being at advantage on hit as a situation where my options aren't respected. Basically it's being stated that d4 isn't good because you can't get guaranteed block pressure off it on hit.

The main issue is that from a D4 on hit at maximum range there's more risk for you to follow up than there is for some characters to challenge you. That is a big deal, I'm not saying there aren't options for people challenging you but some characters force you to really think twice before following up.

The main point of this thread was to get people talking about it and testing it agasint other characters. Testing this against the entire cast will take a while and thankfully some are talking about it which is good.

Isn't Scorpion's D4 the same as Kano's and Predator's?

In terms of start up frames and hit advantage yes but there's far more to it than just the very unreliable frame data. Kano has good mids to follow up with and Predator's has significantly more range.

 

[Scoot Magee]

The main issue is that from a D4 on hit at maximum range there's more risk for you to follow up than there is for some characters to challenge you. That is a big deal, I'm not saying there aren't options for people challenging you but some characters force you to really think twice before following up.

The main point of this thread was to get people talking about it and testing it agasint other characters. Testing this against the entire cast will take a while and thankfully some are talking about it which is good.



In terms of start up frames and hit advantage yes but there's far more to it than just the very unreliable frame data. Kano has good mids to follow up with and Predator's has significantly more range.

Can you give an example of a situation where Scorpion is more at risk after landing a d4? The only options I can think of that the other player has is to reversal back dash or armor out which are both risky. If they do anything else besides back dash or armor Scorpion just has more time to put something out. If you know what the other character can punish you can adjust accordingly and use different options.

 

[JTB123]

Can you give an example of a situation where Scorpion is more at risk after landing a d4? The only options I can think of that the other player has is to reversal back dash or armor out which are both risky. If they do anything else besides back dash or armor Scorpion just has more time to put something out. If you know what the other character can punish you can adjust accordingly and use different options.

Kung Lao, if he reads your follow up you can lose 30-40%. He can even jump back 2 if you go for B3 which will net him almost 40 for no bar.

Jax can also full combo you if he reads your follow up, his are extremely difficult though. I have not tested every character yet but if you want worse case scenario it would basically be which armoured launchers are the most damaging.

Back dashing options are harder to do but give the bigger reward for your opponent.

 

[Derptile]

Kung Lao, if he reads your follow up you can lose 30-40%. He can even jump back 2 if you go for B3 which will net him almost 40 for no bar.

Jax can also full combo you if he reads your follow up, his are extremely difficult though. I have not tested every character yet but if you want worse case scenario it would basically be which armoured launchers are the most damaging.

Back dashing options are harder to do but give the bigger reward for your opponent.

Still they require meter and it's not like it's safe. If you really were a nervous wreck then you could try using 11 to stuff armor, but I really don't see the problem. Frame advantage is still frame advantage

 

[JTB123]

Still they require meter and it's not like it's safe. If you really were a nervous wreck then you could try using 11 to stuff armor, but I really don't see the problem. Frame advantage is still frame advantage

I don't want to focus too much on just two characters at the moment but for the record 11 will not stuff Lao's ex spin nor Jax's dash punch. Also the jump back 2 option with Lao is meterless 40% damage you're eating when he's in Tempest.

 

[Derptile]

I don't want to focus too much on just two characters at the moment but for the record 11 will not stuff Lao's ex spin nor Jax's dash punch. Also the jump back 2 option with Lao is meterless 40% damage you're eating when he's in Tempest.

Dude you know Lao's Jump back 2 is probably one of 4 exceptions in the game lol.

And are you talking about max range d4? Because I'm 90% that a close/medium range d4 into 11/21/B3 will stuff it out.

 

[JTB123]

Dude you know Lao's Jump back 2 is probably one of 4 exceptions in the game lol.

And are you talking about max range d4? Because I'm 90% that a close/medium range d4 into 11/21/B3 will stuff it out.

I know not everyone has Lao's J2 but that's not the point when I'm talking about Kung Lao lol

And yes I'm talking about max range D4 on hit, thats what I'm testing.

 

[Derptile]

I know not everyone has Lao's J2 but that's not the point when I'm talking about Kung Lao lol

And yes I'm talking about max range D4 on hit, thats what I'm testing.

Fair enough about Lao, also Kano has the same problem with max range D4. Predator's the only one who kind of doesn't because of his 1/3 screen normals. Trade off between start-up and hit advantage I suppose.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Kung Lao, if he reads your follow up you can lose 30-40%. He can even jump back 2 if you go for B3 which will net him almost 40 for no bar.

Jax can also full combo you if he reads your follow up, his are extremely difficult though. I have not tested every character yet but if you want worse case scenario it would basically be which armoured launchers are the most damaging.

Back dashing options are harder to do but give the bigger reward for your opponent.

The key word here is on read. If I could read everything correctly I wouldn't have anything to worry about. I could just as easily read a spin or jump 2.

 

[JTB123]

Fair enough about Lao, also Kano has the same problem with max range D4. Predator's the only one who kind of doesn't because of his 1/3 screen normals. Trade off between start-up and hit advantage I suppose.

Yeah it's too bad we can't all have Predator's D4 lol

I know Kano's options aren't the best either outside of Cut throat, I tested his a little as the frames are similar to Scorpions but with more range. Not great for him either unfortunately.

 

[Slips]

Not sure why this is a big deal. Isn't this the case for most characters when their d4 hits at max range? Not even KL gets a guaranteed f2 after his d4 hits at max range.

I don't mind Ninjitsu not getting guaranteed pressure because his f2 will beat 'most' armor reversal attempts. Plus after d4 they are at ideal Ninj range anyway.

Hellfire d4 does in fact give a free 50/50 if you use your tools and think creatively enough guys. Maybe not max range d4 but any closer it does.

 

[JTB123]

Not sure why this is a big deal. Isn't this the case for most characters when their d4 hits at max range? Not even KL gets a guaranteed f2 after his d4 hits at max range.

I don't mind Ninjitsu not getting guaranteed pressure because his f2 will beat 'most' armor reversal attempts. Plus after d4 they are at ideal Ninj range anyway.

Hellfire d4 does in fact give a free 50/50 if you use your tools and think creatively enough guys. Maybe not max range d4 but any closer it does.

I mainly feel it's a big deal as other characters get a lot more on top of having better range tools.

Please tell me what the Hellfire guess is, this mainly refers to Hellfire as in Ninjutsu you do have a very decent option. I am really struggling to find a solution to this so if you do know something please post it.

 

[Slips]

Just d4~FBRC into 50/50. Only max range d4 will your 50/50 not be free on hit.

@JTB123