Cyber Sub-Zero VS. Match-Up Thread

[SWBeta]

Post all vs. character/anti-character strategies here.

This post will be updated regularly to include basic vs. character strats versus all of the cast.

This post will be edited on release day.

 

[vegeta]

Well let's see.
Lemme start it off with his matchup against Noob Saibot. My friend uses noob (played before it came out and I was a bit worried cuz the character was SO broke before the patch) anyway during the PSN "downtime" We trained a bit and I can see that Cyber Sub-Zero can do a number on noob. I guessed as much since from previous MK game experiences the freeze trades for one are always good for the sub-zero characters in general.

Anyway, Some basics for this matchup
If a noob player likes to spam shadow clones and I'm maybe jumping distance or closer, and I KNOW the clone is coming I jump and dive kick. Being close enough for a regular jump kick allows me to do that and then immediately dive kick, lets me get two hits instead of one. I also use his X-Ray in this manner. If he whiffs the ghost fireball, clone or throws a random anti air and I'm in the air myself with full meter, he's eating an X-ray.
This also works ok with the freeze, I can throw a normal one for a trade that leaves him frozen and I can recover quick enough to teleport next to him and do a combo or just get up and dash/jump toward him and do a combo. EX freeze works well too since it has some crazy speed on it so I can trade from nearly full screen.
EX bombs on Noob work ok too. Generally throw it and teleport so if he decided to teleport at the wrong time or escape, lands on the bombs.
The dive kick in itself has some odd properties depending on the timing. This is easier to do on normal teleporting opponents like scorpion or ermac, but I've noticed even with noob, if I'm in the middle of jumping and my opponent uses noobs teleport, I hit do d+4 to do the long divekick and he either A, escapes or in a few cases tracks and hits the teleported out of their attack.
I don't really risk the slide much on noob, especially from a distance, since his shadow clones and tackle the hell outta me.
In a nutshell so far, when fighting noob I try to keep him from spamming to much and fight evasively but from maybe mid to sweep distance. Gives me enough time to react or trade or bait against him.

 

[Dunxco]

Good stuff on the Noob Saibot tactics. Guy gives me all sorts of problems.

 

[SWBeta]

The reason why DKs act funny against Noob is probably because of when you hit the d+kick. It could be before or after the game declares that Noob's model has changed position to the opposite side of the screen. Since the switch happens off-screen, a player cannot tell whether Noob has switched sides yet or not. This obviously happens in a very small time frame, so if you hit the command before the switch, a 1p side CSZ will kick as if Noob is still on 2p side, and after the switch, the kick will track Noob as he gets back on-screen.

VS teleporters like Noob is one of the few situations where Ice Bomb can be useful. Especially c.Ice Bomb. Shoot it out and stand over it. Use it like a small shield.

Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk

 

[vegeta]

Agreed, I confirmed that myself a bit after I posted this. Makes sense. And bomb shields +1 man, Good call. I may still get hit but he's still gonna take a freeze-beating.

 

[REO]

What I've noticed so far is chars that have air control (Kabal, Mileena, Kitana, Sub-Zero, etc.) and chars that always punish your dive kicks 100% regardless of spacing (Raiden, Cage, Reptile, Nightwolf, etc.) give CSZ the most trouble.

If CSZ can't get in and apply pressure or control the air against an opponent well with dive kicks then he has to stay grounded and his ground game is pretty poor. His normals have poor range and are only most effective when he's at pointblank which he uses dive kicks and jump-ins to acheive.

Right now he seems like a very solid char, you're just gonna have to adapt in different ways of playing him as a whole in certain match-ups. I'm gonna continue messing around with CSZ for a while and use him at future tournaments and see how he plays out. I don't have much experience with this char against humans, most of what I've built on came straight out of practice mode.

 

[SWBeta]

What I've noticed so far is chars that have air control (Kabal, Mileena, Kitana, Sub-Zero, etc.) and chars that always punish your dive kicks 100% regardless of spacing (Raiden, Cage, Reptile, Nightwolf, etc.) give CSZ the most trouble.

This is what I've been thinking lately as well.

Definitely going to have to adopt an unorthodox method to consistently fair well against some of those match-ups.

 

[REO]

Yeah, CSZ is definitely going to require some dedication and heavy match-up experience if you want to pull through with him or if you plan on making him your main.

 

[Raidenwins]

CSZ would be a lot more competitive if his Ice (Cryo) Bombs always froze on contact. As it is they behavior is very odd. They only freeze if at the moment of shooting them the opponent is in vulnerable frames (credit Tom Brady).

 

[KingKuma]

CSZ would be a lot more competitive if his Ice (Cryo) Bombs always froze on contact. As it is they behavior is very odd. They only freeze if at the moment of shooting them the opponent is in vulnerable frames (credit Tom Brady).

Do you mean NOT in vulnerable frames? I think I heard that too but bombs won't freeze an opponent if you throw one out when they are on the ground. I think those count as vulnerable frames.

 

[R2FI]

could we discuss the kano matchup?
not that i came across many good kanos, but the ones who know what they are doing give me trouble to no end, mainly because of the up ball.
that thing seems safe like cage's upkick, at least online. what can csz do against kanos who like to check you with upball after any of their strings?

 

[Apocalypse]

could we discuss the kano matchup?
not that i came across many good kanos, but the ones who know what they are doing give me trouble to no end, mainly because of the up ball.
that thing seems safe like cage's upkick, at least online. what can csz do against kanos who like to check you with upball after any of their strings?

Well upball's getting nerfed a bit with the patch, so it should be more punishable

 

[RWDY Nori]

So anybody who has been playing CZ a while can answer this: What do you think are his best 3 and worst 3 matchups?

 

[Apocalypse]

So anybody who has been playing CZ a while can answer this: What do you think are his best 3 and worst 3 matchups?

Best 3:

1) Sonya
2) Stryker
3) Shang Tsung

Worst 3:

1) Kung Lao
2) Noob Saibot
3) Ermac

 

[M2Dave]

could we discuss the kano matchup?
not that i came across many good kanos, but the ones who know what they are doing give me trouble to no end, mainly because of the up ball.
that thing seems safe like cage's upkick, at least online. what can csz do against kanos who like to check you with upball after any of their strings?

Unless Kano has an X-Ray, I believe he must block Cyber Sub's 2,1,1+2 after the Up Ball gets blocked. He cannot interrupt you with a second Up Ball or jump out.

Stay a little bit closer than half a screen to Kano where Cyber Sub can punish the knives on reaction with the far dive kicks. The slide goes underneath the knives, but you will pay the price if the Kano player baits you. Far dive kicks are a safer option because Kano only gets the straight ball on block.

Cyber Sub's parry gives Kano's offense some problems. It parries all of Kano's moves with the exception of the X-Ray, d+1, d+3, and d+4.

Cyber Sub vs. Kano is probably an even match up at the moment. In this match, I see Kano as a poor man's version of Noob, particularly when the coming tweak tones down the Up Ball.

 

[Draeka]

Does anyone have any match up advice vs Kung Lao and Ermac?

I Normaly try and punish mistakes and whiffed spins etc but im so scared to push a button in those 2 match ups which kills my rushdown game.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Best 3:

1) Sonya
2) Stryker
3) Shang Tsung

Worst 3:

1) Kung Lao
2) Noob Saibot
3) Ermac

Can you go into detail on his worst 3 matchups please?

 

[funkdoc]

I don't think Noob or even Ermac are that bad at all. You can divekick Noob's stuff on reaction, even the upward shadow.

Ermac seems tough until you realize that he doesn't have much to keep you from planting bombs and forcing him to come to you. His only real option against that from fullscreen is teleport and we know how unsafe that is. Sub-Zero has similar problems, and it's even worse for him in some ways since he has no teleport; EX bombs into EX freeze is pretty free on Sub.

Right now I'm inclined to say that Raiden is his worst matchup or up there at least, for the same reasons Raiden's so good in general. Has offense you can't insta-parry and you can't just throw out divekicks. Hell, you can't bomb trap him anywhere. Kano is definitely in 3 worst until upball gets nerfed, at which point I don't expect him to be too much of a problem (especially if knife is nerfed like they've hinted at). Nightwolf could very well be up there too...

 

[Apocalypse]

Can you go into detail on his worst 3 matchups please?

I don't know why I typed Noob Saibot to be completely honest. Noob is one of the best match-ups. I'll replace him with Kitana in this list.

Keep in mind this is only based on my personal experience. Cyber-Sub really doesn't have any matches in which he gets dominated. he can always win despite the disadvantages I'm going to point out. These worst match-ups of his are probably no worse than 4/6.

1) Kung Lao - Spin essentially negates your Dive Kick, and Kung has his own Dive Kick anyway (which gets priority over Cyber-Sub's from most angles). Kung's normals are faster than Cyber-Sub's also, and a slightly anticipatory teleport can make bombs and ice balls useless at times. This match-up is mostly hard because Kung Lao has few weaknesses and is probably a top-2 character in the game.

2) Kitana - Fan lift, instant air fan, and square dash all allow Kitana to control the air, and Cyber-Sub generally need his aerial threat to be present in order to mount a dominant offense. It's also very risky to try to parry Kitana because of her quick down pokes and the threat of her fan lift. Overall, you most likely have to switch up your game-plan when fighting Kitana, especially if you play off of your Dive Kick.

3) Ermac - The main advantage Ermac has is his ability to catch you out of the air with TKP and punish blocked Dive Kicks with Lift. This is the easiest of Cyber-Sub's worst match-ups, you just have to resort to dishing bombs and baiting jumps and teleports and then punish accordingly. You can't begin a traditional offensive attack with Cyber-Sub while Ermac is in a comfortable defensive stance.

There are a few other characters (such as Kano) that give Cyber-Sub problems, but as I mentioned before, Cyber-Sub is very balanced match-up wise. You can defeat any character, but learning strats for every match-up is important for Cyber-Sub, maybe more so than most characters.

 

[Apocalypse]

Right now I'm inclined to say that Raiden is his worst matchup or up there at least, for the same reasons Raiden's so good in general. Has offense you can't insta-parry and you can't just throw out divekicks. Hell, you can't bomb trap him anywhere.

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't have problems with Raiden so much. I mean, sure it's annoying, but beating him isn't all that complicated. Delayed close dive kicks beat teleport-happy Raidens all day long. You may not be able to bomb trap him, but there are several other characters that you can't bomb trap either, and Cyber-Sub bomb traps aren't all that reliable anyway.

It could be that all of the Raidens I've faced have been of sub-par skill, I don't know. But from what I've experienced I'd much rather face a Raiden than a Kung Lao.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Best 3:

1) Sonya
2) Stryker
3) Shang Tsung

Worst 3:

1) Kung Lao
2) Noob Saibot
3) Ermac

I disagree about Stryker being an easy matchup for CSZ. I recently lost to Banana Ken's CSZ but while playing him I found out some interesting stuff about the matchup.

Stryker has air control with gun shot and high grenade. Gun shot stops dive kicks easily and high grenade makes you scared of jumping in. I can easily roll on reaction to punish ice blast and ice bomb. Slide is super punishable.

Basically the only thing that favors Cyber Sub is his amazing dash. It's true he can close distance quickly with dash block but if Cyber Sub isn't in my face then Stryker has advantage for sure.

 

[Apocalypse]

I disagree about Stryker being an easy matchup for CSZ. I recently lost to Banana Ken's CSZ but while playing him I found out some interesting stuff about the matchup.

Stryker has air control with gun shot and high grenade. Gun shot stops dive kicks easily and high grenade makes you scared of jumping in. I can easily roll on reaction to punish ice blast and ice bomb. Slide is super punishable.

Basically the only thing that favors Cyber Sub is his amazing dash. It's true he can close distance quickly with dash block but if Cyber isn't in my face then Stryker has advantage for sure.

That's a reasonable assessment. I guess I have yet to face a competent Stryker.

 

[RWDY Nori]

I main NW/Sub Zero so was strongly considering playing him as well, just trying to validate my reasons for it. Keep the matchup tips coming please, I'm taking notes on all the posts, thanks guys

 

[JennyCage]

Worst:
Kung Lao - can't jump in on him, his divekick out prioritizes Cyber's, and his ground and zoning game is hugely superior. Ground hats stop slide as a gap closer. Spin can punish any teleport.

Kabal - takes away Cyber's air, making it hard to teleport or divekick through the air projectile spam. Ground blades stop slide as a gap closer.

Ermac - can punish every blocked divekick with a huge combo. One of the few characters easily able to punish Cyber's divekicks.

It's harder to think of his best matchups... aside from Shang Tsung, that fight is just unfair since divekick avoids the bulk of Shang's offense. I think he's strong against Reptile for the same reason, plus parry makes short work of elbow dash happy Reptiles. Reptile can punish blocked divekicks though, so it's not all in his favour.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

I think he's strong against Reptile for the same reason, plus parry makes short work of elbow dash happy Reptiles. Reptile can punish blocked divekicks though, so it's not all in his favour.

I think he's about 5/5 with Rep. I haven't faced many good CSZs yet though. Does his parry work on projectiles like Liu Kang/Smoke's? Stupid trainer, can't test this crap accurately.