Saboteur-6
Filthy Casual
MATCH-UP DISCUSSION POST PATCH
(WORK IN-PROGRESS)
(I might've missed some information in the other thread since it's 18+ pages so if anyone wants to point out anything feel free. Also, I'll credit what you contribute to this thread from here on out. It was too complicated to do with the other thread.)
Spring is around the corner as is the first-year anniversay of IGAU so what better time to do a little spring cleaning? In an effort to combine things discussed in the Match-Up thread into a useful reference, I've gone to the effort of compiling recent relevant discussion. I don't care if this get's canabalized / merged into the similar thread because it's all in the spirit of creating an actual USEABLE quick reference. The other thread in it's current state is severely incomplete.
To be clear, most of this is just lifted conversation at the moment but can be rewritten more concretely if/when people start contributing. I might just search some known "Match-Up Cops" to help provide more credible technical information.
Also for clarification: Discussing a Match-Up is VASTLY more involved than people seem to acknowledge.
- Simply debating matchup-numbers doesn't really do a whole lot without explanation. CONTEXT makes all the difference.
- Discussing strategies for FAVORABLE or EVEN Match-Ups are also important. If you have effective strategies that work, please share them. That's how we further flesh-out this game.
- This list is a TOOL as much as it is a place for discussion. The end goal is not simply to hash out a numeric tier list but provide a USEABLE reference on how to fight / strategize against match-up's.
*GENERAL Strategy Discussion -
Mid screen
Any starter -> 23 -> b3 -> dash fwd -> delay f3 slightly (so they land in front of you)
This will restand the opponent right in your face. Works magnificently against large hitbox characters and I've gotten to work on superman and black Adam once each. This is where I could use some help, because I can't consistently land it on smaller characters.
Something else I found which perhaps is also useful (I use it as a setup)
Mid screen
Any starter -> 23 -> b3 -> dash fwd 2x (twice!) -> then b3.
It's an OTG that will hit them into a literal full combo with potential juggle opportunities (does not have any combo restrictions!)
Blocking and low and opposite direction can block it though, but thrown in with the regular F3 setup and crossover setup then you've got yourself a pretty sick ass mind game.”
Mid screen
Any starter -> 23 -> b3 -> dash fwd -> delay f3 slightly (so they land in front of you)
This will restand the opponent right in your face. Works magnificently against large hitbox characters and I've gotten to work on superman and black Adam once each. This is where I could use some help, because I can't consistently land it on smaller characters.
Something else I found which perhaps is also useful (I use it as a setup)
Mid screen
Any starter -> 23 -> b3 -> dash fwd 2x (twice!) -> then b3.
It's an OTG that will hit them into a literal full combo with potential juggle opportunities (does not have any combo restrictions!)
Blocking and low and opposite direction can block it though, but thrown in with the regular F3 setup and crossover setup then you've got yourself a pretty sick ass mind game.”
STAGE Strategy Discussion -
*
“She's a pretty good all-rounder so any stage that suits a power character (Arkham etc) suits her. I personally like themyscira just cause it's her home and we make good use of the interactables, the tree shanigans are so much fun, plus she has a good mind game at the start with every character not named GL, MM, Sinestro... “
“I would say Themyscira is her best stage. Her interactables xontrol is very good, i actually have unblockable 50/50's in the corner. After a crossup OTG in the tree side... Do B2~tree interectable or 33~interactable, after they get hit you get another OTG that outs them in the corner. ”
*
“She's a pretty good all-rounder so any stage that suits a power character (Arkham etc) suits her. I personally like themyscira just cause it's her home and we make good use of the interactables, the tree shanigans are so much fun, plus she has a good mind game at the start with every character not named GL, MM, Sinestro... “
“I would say Themyscira is her best stage. Her interactables xontrol is very good, i actually have unblockable 50/50's in the corner. After a crossup OTG in the tree side... Do B2~tree interectable or 33~interactable, after they get hit you get another OTG that outs them in the corner. ”
APPENDIX references (Links / Threads that can benefit strategy)
* Wakeups and You! - @AK Glass_Sword's universal guide to stuffing wakeups.
* Wakeups and You! - @AK Glass_Sword's universal guide to stuffing wakeups.
* Aquaman has trouble against shield stance, as well as certain knockdown setups in Lasso that prevent his water shield wakeup and open him up to 5050s, once he's cornered he is also in a fair bit of trouble against both stances.
Shield stance will probably end up being more trouble for him, since I've just today found out ways to make raw shield charges safe to moves like his F1 and B1, even safe to Supermans F2 AND Flashes 6f flying uppercut.
Its hard for him to open you up so long as you just block low and teach yourself to react to his overheads.
Batman juts D3 all match like a tard, mash 11 while ducking everytime he presses anything other than B23.
* "Aqauman is very very very susceptible to lasso parry.
Online is clearly harder to do.. but instead of just blocking his stuff... you parry and punish. This also makes him waste his trait when he doesn't want to.”
“if they are trident happy jumping airdashing and late demi goddess might works pretty well. If they are trying to use the range on his normals thats fine because b2 snuffs it. Since a lot of his damage comes from MB combos the clash is almost always in your favor. As for his trait if he uses it ill just try and stay in with b1/33 pressure or tick throw to kill the time on his trait. If he traits up before the launch in b113 be sure to trait into bf3~mb to maintain pressure on him.”
Shield stance will probably end up being more trouble for him, since I've just today found out ways to make raw shield charges safe to moves like his F1 and B1, even safe to Supermans F2 AND Flashes 6f flying uppercut.
Its hard for him to open you up so long as you just block low and teach yourself to react to his overheads.
Batman juts D3 all match like a tard, mash 11 while ducking everytime he presses anything other than B23.
* "Aqauman is very very very susceptible to lasso parry.
Online is clearly harder to do.. but instead of just blocking his stuff... you parry and punish. This also makes him waste his trait when he doesn't want to.”
“if they are trident happy jumping airdashing and late demi goddess might works pretty well. If they are trying to use the range on his normals thats fine because b2 snuffs it. Since a lot of his damage comes from MB combos the clash is almost always in your favor. As for his trait if he uses it ill just try and stay in with b1/33 pressure or tick throw to kill the time on his trait. If he traits up before the launch in b113 be sure to trait into bf3~mb to maintain pressure on him.”
None discussed. Info needed.
Both players need to know the ins and outs. Wonder Woman has the same issue on the ground as most do. she CAN'T get up. Also has to deal with Bane's footsie game. Getting on him can be frustrating with his d1, d2 range etc. Basically the regular Bane bs.
But she also has a lot of answers. D3 is really solid. Anything parried is a full combo punish. Her damage output is insane, especially on venom. and her oki CAN work. Basically the input reversals, airdashes etc. It's not the most reliable, but when you do 40% meterless with great mobility it makes up for it. B2 is also an awesome tool in this match, to keep him at bay. ~ @BiPolarExxpress
But she also has a lot of answers. D3 is really solid. Anything parried is a full combo punish. Her damage output is insane, especially on venom. and her oki CAN work. Basically the input reversals, airdashes etc. It's not the most reliable, but when you do 40% meterless with great mobility it makes up for it. B2 is also an awesome tool in this match, to keep him at bay. ~ @BiPolarExxpress
Batgirl's zoning shouldn't be too much of a problem. From full-screen you can walk forward and jump over her projectiles on reaction. As long as you don't jump without reason you shouldn't take any unnecessary damage. For her wake-ups, if she keeps trying to use cartwheel/smoke bomb you can beat both options by dashing, waiting a half-second and doing a j2 after a lasso grab knockdown. This loses to flying bat (df2) but it forces her to use her more unsafe wake-up option. I should note that while it is possible to beat her wake-up cartwheel with b2/33, the timing is really tight so it's probably not worth going for. If you can get it down then props to you. Smoke bomb gets stuffed easily, though no one good should be waking up with it unless you're in the air.
Speaking of cartwheel, you want to make absolutely sure that you punish it whenever possible. If you think she's going to go for the low ender, you have to block the cartwheel standing and switch to low block before the last hit; otherwise you'll be out of range for your d1~spin punish. For the overhead ender it doesn't matter how you block the cartwheel itself so you'll always get b113 into a combo. The high ender requires you to block cartwheel crouching because if you don't, you're still forced to block it and she's at +8. On whiff you can punish with the string of your choosing. If possible you want to avoid this guessing game, though. When you don't trust your ability to guess right in that situation, you're probably better off forgoing oki entirely since WoWo's neutral game is better anyway.
At mid-range she has to respect your normals just like most of the cast and it shouldn't be that easy to get in. A lot of Batgirl players get away with dashing up and going for a 50/50, but this shouldn't work if you train yourself to react to dashes with something like d1 or 11. d2 handles her jump-ins just fine, but she can bait it by jumping and using smoke bomb when you try to anti-air. It's very risky but it does work from time to time. Just something to be aware of. ~ @Drizzle
Speaking of cartwheel, you want to make absolutely sure that you punish it whenever possible. If you think she's going to go for the low ender, you have to block the cartwheel standing and switch to low block before the last hit; otherwise you'll be out of range for your d1~spin punish. For the overhead ender it doesn't matter how you block the cartwheel itself so you'll always get b113 into a combo. The high ender requires you to block cartwheel crouching because if you don't, you're still forced to block it and she's at +8. On whiff you can punish with the string of your choosing. If possible you want to avoid this guessing game, though. When you don't trust your ability to guess right in that situation, you're probably better off forgoing oki entirely since WoWo's neutral game is better anyway.
At mid-range she has to respect your normals just like most of the cast and it shouldn't be that easy to get in. A lot of Batgirl players get away with dashing up and going for a 50/50, but this shouldn't work if you train yourself to react to dashes with something like d1 or 11. d2 handles her jump-ins just fine, but she can bait it by jumping and using smoke bomb when you try to anti-air. It's very risky but it does work from time to time. Just something to be aware of. ~ @Drizzle
“I say batman just because with good trait management, and proper bat usage it can be hard to get pressure going on him. Reno has gotten amazing at annihilating me if I ever jump at him, forcing me to a grounded game where I think with trait he is at advantage. Another pesky thing about bats is his ability to get out of the corner all but free with the bomb interactables. Not saying its unwinnable or anything just I definitely think its in his favor.”
“I never said jump at Batman, you never need to leave the ground. D3 goes under trait anywhere on the screen, so I have no idea what your idea of 'proper' trait management is. It's not like my training partner doesn't main Batman either.
D3 beats all strings bar B23, AND his trait, I've said it so many times, why would you do anything else against Batman until you hit him with it so you can mount offense? Considering he sucks at getting off the ground, there's no way I'd say its his favour.”
“I haven't found Batman to be too bad yet. The fact that she can sweep or parry batarangs, then just patiently move in seems pretty good. If he starts rushing you down you can just block it until he opens himself up. His B112 whiffs the 2nd hit a LOT on her for some reason, so you can punish with d1 xx spin, and there's no way that he can jump at you.”
“I never said jump at Batman, you never need to leave the ground. D3 goes under trait anywhere on the screen, so I have no idea what your idea of 'proper' trait management is. It's not like my training partner doesn't main Batman either.
D3 beats all strings bar B23, AND his trait, I've said it so many times, why would you do anything else against Batman until you hit him with it so you can mount offense? Considering he sucks at getting off the ground, there's no way I'd say its his favour.”
“I haven't found Batman to be too bad yet. The fact that she can sweep or parry batarangs, then just patiently move in seems pretty good. If he starts rushing you down you can just block it until he opens himself up. His B112 whiffs the 2nd hit a LOT on her for some reason, so you can punish with d1 xx spin, and there's no way that he can jump at you.”
None discussed relevant to the "normalized" post-V.106 patch Black Adam. Info needed.
That knife cuts both ways dude. WW's WU's are terrible against a solid CW. If I don't beat them outright, I can low profile them or avoid them with certain jumping normals and have a free punish after you leave yourself wide open. The only thing WW has over CW is air mobility. But yea both have their dirt. It's a fun battle either way.
“CW has good HKD setups, and both characters can nullify the others wakeups, but WW has much better HKD setups since she gets a crossover attempt as well, on top of that, if CW guesses wrong WW can get out and back to range, which she has more of. If WoWo guesses wrong on the first attempt, doesnt matter, she'll either be +2 and set herself up for either a backdash punish or a frame trap.
“It turns out you can actually d3 under all of Catwoman's wakeup attacks except trait. If you time it early, cat dash actually whiffs right in front of you and you can get a full combo with b113.”
Nah things WW has over CW:
- Range (B1 and B2)
- More continuous offense
- Anti airs
- A safe -2 projectile (instant trait shield toss)
- Crossovers midscreen
- OTGs (but this is kinda useless against CW)
A competent WW shouldnt lose in the neutral game to a CW. They're both good when they get their stuff going, but WW is better cause she always has 3 options and never has to worry about catching backdashes, where as CW only has 2, and still needs an option to stop backdashes.”- Range (B1 and B2)
- More continuous offense
- Anti airs
- A safe -2 projectile (instant trait shield toss)
- Crossovers midscreen
- OTGs (but this is kinda useless against CW)
“CW has good HKD setups, and both characters can nullify the others wakeups, but WW has much better HKD setups since she gets a crossover attempt as well, on top of that, if CW guesses wrong WW can get out and back to range, which she has more of. If WoWo guesses wrong on the first attempt, doesnt matter, she'll either be +2 and set herself up for either a backdash punish or a frame trap.
WW is just a better version of CW tbh.
Also, she's not designed to get ahead and stay ahead. She's designed to kill you once she makes you start guessing. It only takes 1 hit from a B2 to start up all her bullshit.
Other than that she's an all round solid character with no real weakness.
Her D3 isnt punishable by D1 cat claws anyway, blocked D3s can make D1s whiff within her B113 range, so thats not the way to respond really.”
Also, she's not designed to get ahead and stay ahead. She's designed to kill you once she makes you start guessing. It only takes 1 hit from a B2 to start up all her bullshit.
Other than that she's an all round solid character with no real weakness.
Her D3 isnt punishable by D1 cat claws anyway, blocked D3s can make D1s whiff within her B113 range, so thats not the way to respond really.”
“It turns out you can actually d3 under all of Catwoman's wakeup attacks except trait. If you time it early, cat dash actually whiffs right in front of you and you can get a full combo with b113.”
Nothing discussed. Need more info.
Nothing discussed post-patch.
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