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Counter poking: Advanced tactics

AK L0rdoftheFLY

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
The power of counter pokes

I used to think NW was original because he has a 10 frame advantage off of d3. Then I started looking and realizing that's not true.

I put this information together because I believe this is a very over looked area of general gameplay. This is also the reason I get frustrated with online. Counter pokes are essential at the highest level and can turn pressure around in the blink of an eye. The frames to counter poke are tight and timing is essential. This data will give everyone an idea of what their character can do.

I chose d3 because it is the best counter poke option. D1 can work if it's a race to hit first but usually d1 on block is -13 and on hit doesn't grant enough advantage to establish an offense. Not to say they shouldn't be used but d3 is usually better when specifically talking about counter poking. Online counter poking is about at consistent as AA so just another reason why online shouldn't be considered high level play.

For an example as nw I use f312 which is 0 on block. My opponent with a 6 frame d 1 usually pokes first. I know this, block their d1, and counter poke in their -13 frames putting me at +10 if they are holding down and giving me free f3 pressure. d3 is MY counter poke of choice.

Skarlet gets a free f4 check and b1 check if a d3 counter poke hits.

Cage gets a free f3 if d3 hits also.

d3 stand or crouch advantage operates like this: they get +10 on hit on a CROUCHING opponent but only +3 on a STANDING opponent. (varies based on individual character data)

This is important for the following reason.

When in vulnerable frames from a blocked poke, although they are in an animation that is crouched, the game engine considers their stand/crouch state based on whether or not they are holding "down" at that particular instance of hit connection. In other words, the input from the controller is what dictates which state they are in: standing or crouching.

For example, if you were to block someone's d1 and punish with d3, you're not guaranteed to be at +10. That depends on whether they HELD "down" after d1 or just tapped it. If they just tapped it, you will hit them in what the game engine sees as standing state and will only be +3.

If your character has a 9 frame or less special mid or low (Kabal f4, Cage f3, Liu Kang b3) you can counter poke d1's for full combo if you scout one. (thanks to KT Smith for the info)

Let's evolve the gameplay and stop applying mindless pressure. This is the knowledge that separates the mid tier from the high tier players.

The number represents advantage on CROUCH hit and the second number is advantage when blocked

Every d3 is 7 frames unless otherwise noted.

Scorpian -6, -7
Sub zero +9 -8
Reptile +11 -6 (8 frame startup)
Ermac +5 -11
Noob +10 -7
Smoke +10 -7
Rain +5 -12
Mileena +9 -8
Kitana +10 -7
Jade +10 -7
Skarlet +10 -7
Sektor +9 -8
Cyrax +8 -9 (9 frame start up)
Cyber sub +7 -10 (6 frame start up)
kenshi +10 -7
Freddy (no data available)
Sindel +3 -7
Sonya +8 -9 (8 frame start up)
Jax (data not available)
Cage +3 -7
Stryker (data not available)
Luis Kang +10 -7
Kung Lao +10 -7 (9 frame start up)
Kano +10 -7
Nightwolf +10 -7
Kabal +10 -7
Baraka +2 -8 (6 frame start up)
Shang +3 -7
Quan Chi +10 -7
Raiden +8 -9
Sheeva +10 -7

Thanks to Somberness for the data. when he finishes all the characters I will update thread.

I will put d1 data together soon but it is all available in each thread...it just takes forever to navigate through them all.

how to punish d1 thread
 
Skkra

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
It's nice to see this man, thanks for putting this together. The one thing I definitely learned is that Scorpion loses the D+3 war and Quan Chi very clearly wins it by being the only that is completely safe on block.
 
AK L0rdoftheFLY

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Skkra said:
It's nice to see this man, thanks for putting this together. The one thing I definitely learned is that Scorpion loses the D+3 war and Quan Chi very clearly wins it by being the only that is completely safe on block.
Click to expand...
oops good catch...it is -7 not -3. sorry to get your hopes up


updated. other issues please let me know
 
Johnny2d

Johnny2d

Xbl: Johnny2Die
I guess I'm surprised at how all over the place this actually is. I assumed there would be differences but not this vast. Quan is -3 on block??? while rain is -12... Interesting.

Thanks for this post.
 
Skkra

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
L0rdoftheFLY said:
oops good catch...it is -7 not -3. sorry to get your hopes up
Click to expand...
Ha! That makes more sense. I don't know his frame data offhand, other than that most of his standard strings at neutral on block, so I didn't realize that that was wrong.

I'm kinda sad that Ermac's is so bad on block compared to the rest of the cast, but I mean... Scorpion players should be saddest of all.
 
NKZero

NKZero

Warrior
Good stuff L0rdoftheFLY. But hey I wanted to ask how strict is the timing. Sometimes when I have a D3 or D1 blocked I always follow up with axe swing. For some reason if the opponent tries to counter poke they get blown up. Does it have anything to do with the invincibility of the axe swing? Doesn't the axe swing have certain special properties?
 
1man3letters

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
nice thread L0rdoftheFLY :)
also maybe it could be noted if the move as different hit/block data vs a crouching opp cause from the frame data threads,some do
 
AK L0rdoftheFLY

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
NKZero said:
Good stuff L0rdoftheFLY. But hey I wanted to ask how strict is the timing. Sometimes when I have a D3 or D1 blocked I always follow up with axe swing. For some reason if the opponent tries to counter poke they get blown up. Does it have anything to do with the invincibility of the axe swing? Doesn't the axe swing have certain special properties?
Click to expand...
nw d1 link to axe is ALWAYS interuptable up close. from the right distance if your opponent has short range on their pokes you can stuff their poke with axe but you need to be careful of the range you use d1 to axe.
 
NKZero

NKZero

Warrior
L0rdoftheFLY said:
nw d1 link to axe is ALWAYS interpretable up close. from the right distance if your opponent has short range on their pokes you can stuff their poke with axe but you need to be careful of the range you use d1 to axe.
Click to expand...
what dyou mean by interpretable? I'm assuming interruptible? if thats the case then i get the rest of your sentence :p. thanks for clearing that up. so it just depends on the range i guess.
 
AK BeerGuyEd

AK BeerGuyEd

Apprentice
Great stuff L0rdoftheFLY

Reading this really shows me why when I was commentating FR I saw so many times 2 high level players just crouch blocking next to each other. Now I understand why to a lot deeper level then I did at the time.

Hope I can incorporate this info into my game. d3 > d1
 
OutworldKeith

OutworldKeith

Champion
L0rdoftheFLY I posted about this a few weeks ago, but you explain it better than I did. It's also noteworthy that all pokes have push back on hit/block so spacing is a key factor. For example, If you block d1 the obvious counter is d1 or d3, but if your opponent also counter pokes d1/d3 will whiff so you have to use d4. Also, be weary that your opponent is still able to block your counter poke & poke back.
 
Glass Sword

Glass Sword

Nobody
Yeah looking at the numbers reenforces what I already knew. Scorpion is low tier because of two moves d3 and d4. The meta game has evolved to the point were not having a good d3 and a good d4 can be the bane of a character at higher level play. (What is really silly is Scorpion had a decent d3 in one of the earlier patches. I don't know about d4, but I assume it was good too.)
Thanks for the putting all the info together LOrdoftheFLY I shall apply it to my other character.
 
G4S KT

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
the NY players have spent a long time investigating this topic and there is one thing that needs clarification because it's a little off.

See, the characters that you're talking about that get advantage off their d3s operate like this: they get +10 on hit on a CROUCHING opponent but only +3 on a STANDING opponent.

This is important for the following reason.

When in vulnerable frames from a blocked poke, although they are in an animation that is crouched, the game engine considers their stand/crouch state based on whether or not they are holding "down" at that particular instance of hit connection. In other words, the input from the controller is what dictates which state they are in: standing or crouching.

For example, if you were to block someone's d1 and punish with d3, you're not guaranteed to be at +10. That depends on whether they HELD "down" after d1 or just tapped it. If they just tapped it, you will hit them in what the game engine sees as standing state and will only be +3.

If your character has a 9 frame or less special mid or low (Kabal f4, Cage f3, Liu Kang b3) you can counter poke d1's for full combo if you scout one.

For characters like my man Smoke, they don't have any normals like this so I always counter poke with d3 to get advantage. However, you won't know how much advantage you're at until you can see your opponent's hit animation.

This might seem confusing, but it's important.
 
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