Counter Hits. Yay or Nay

[MKF30]

It's not an essential game defining mechanic, MK will be just fine with out it.
But at the same time, there is no real reason not to have it, there is no downside to them, it only adds a little bit of depth.

It could also be used to help fix one of MK9's problems, useless strings. Lots of characters had strings or normals that just had no use what so ever, they could give these strings powerful counter hit properties to make them a viable option on a good read. Give players a large tool kit.

I suppose so, or for your second point especially just give characters relevant moves and take away those useless strings or moves. Plus remember, they did confirm us being able to alter characters now which I can see also help solve that issue. Im sure between feedback, mk 9, injustice etc mk x will be deeper or deep enough im sure.

 

[IrishMantis]

It's not an essential game defining mechanic, MK will be just fine with out it.
But at the same time, there is no real reason not to have it, there is no downside to them, it only adds a little bit of depth.

It could also be used to help fix one of MK9's problems, useless strings. Lots of characters had strings or normals that just had no use what so ever, they could give these strings powerful counter hit properties to make them a viable option on a good read. Give players a large tool kit.

yeah it would have no game changing use, but it could shut down alot of chars super safe footsies and strings make them respect them more, if its DMG only no Big deal, but if its other things like pop ups it could what makes the char win the match

 

[bettyswallaux]

lol. thats asking too much

Its not lol, for all the shit MK9 gets it was a great start for NRS, MK9 mechanics are fast and fun, with some tweaking they could be brilliant .

 

[d3v]

Counter hit in most games usually results in more hitstun. That said, this won't likely happen unless NRS is now using a pure hitstun based combo engine instead of one that seems to require moves to be arbitrarily flagged to be able to combo.

 

[IrishMantis]

Counter hit in most games usually results in more hitstun. That said, this won't likely happen unless NRS is now using a pure hitstun based combo engine instead of one that seems to require moves to be arbitrarily flagged to be able to combo.

Iknow its a 3D game but TTT3 has a very similar combo system pop up wise it worked well for them, but again its a 3D game

 

[Alien Substance]

@Alien Substance are you a chick? Just curious.

Nope.

It's not an essential game defining mechanic, MK will be just fine with out it.
But at the same time, there is no real reason not to have it, there is no downside to them, it only adds a little bit of depth.

It could also be used to help fix one of MK9's problems, useless strings. Lots of characters had strings or normals that just had no use what so ever, they could give these strings powerful counter hit properties to make them a viable option on a good read. Give players a large tool kit.

I'd like counter hits to be introduced to give life to "useless strings". As a general slight damage boost, I'm not so sure about, because then I'd be all paranoid about my own mistakes, but that's more of an issue with myself.

I could go either way with having counter hits; no big deal if we get it or not.

 

[MKF30]

Nope.
I'd like counter hits to be introduced to give life to "useless strings". As a general slight damage boost, I'm not so sure about, because then I'd be all paranoid about my own mistakes, but that's more of an issue with myself.

I could go either way with having counter hits; no big deal if we get it or not.

lol I figured by now haha

 

[Zoidberg747]

Counter hits. are normally used more in 3D games, so I say just stick to parries and reversals.

 

[PND i2 Gaug3]

Counter hits. are normally used more in 3D games, so I say just stick to parries and reversals.

Na I don't know of any fighting games around now that don't have counter hits.

It's kind of hard to do full traditional counter hit properties (more damage + extra hitstun) because NRS games use pre-made strings and not links/chains like other fighting games. If this is to be implemented I think the best way would be to have added damage to the counter hit itself and a new on hit properties, that would fall right into the NRS way they love to mess around with damage and the way moves work.


Imagine Jax OHS someone doing a low attack and he gets a ground bounce......The mere thought sends me salivating DO IT NRS

 

[Heroic_Legacy]

Counter hit in most games usually results in more hitstun. That said, this won't likely happen unless NRS is now using a pure hitstun based combo engine instead of one that seems to require moves to be arbitrarily flagged to be able to combo.

This is one of the biggest things about the NRS style of games that makes me mad. Inconsistent hitstun/input timing in moves due to the games requiring you to have already done an input done as a move is hitting.

Land a jump in? Alright cool open season for whatever followup you want as long as you input it before you land. Your hit advantage was around +50 because you were hitting buttons before you landed.

Land a jump in? Hit confirming the jump in so you wait that extra frame as you land before you input? lol nope, your hitstun was actually just +4 because you weren't hitting the buttons early enough.

Though MK/Injustice are fighting games, they are so far off from the normality that the engine makes little to no sense to anyone trying to look at it from another fighting game's standpoint on why things works.

 

[d3v]

Counter hits. are normally used more in 3D games, so I say just stick to parries and reversals.

Nope. Counter hit has been a part of 2D fighters for the longest time now. Just check the forums for games like BlazBlue, Guilty Gear and even Street Fighter. People will often list down counter hit BnBs because these tend to be longer/do more damage due to the increased hit stun.

Iknow its a 3D game but TTT3 has a very similar combo system pop up wise it worked well for them, but again its a 3D game

But TTT2's combo system is still hitstun based. In other words, as long as your opponent is in hitstun, or in a juggle or bound state (which still counts as hitstun), then you can wail on them for free (as long as the moves don't whiff).

With the NRS engine, it seems that there are certain flags for whether or not a move can combo into another. While this isn't noticeable most of the time, it becomes quite noticeable on things like jump ins, where you know that you should have enough hitstun to link something in, but for some reason you can't.

This is one of the biggest things about the NRS style of games that makes me mad. Inconsistent hitstun/input timing in moves due to the games requiring you to have already done an input done as a move is hitting.

Land a jump in? Alright cool open season for whatever followup you want as long as you input it before you land. Your hit advantage was around +50 because you were hitting buttons before you landed.

Land a jump in? Hit confirming the jump in so you wait that extra frame as you land before you input? lol nope, your hitstun was actually just +4 because you weren't hitting the buttons early enough.

Though MK/Injustice are fighting games, they are so far off from the normality that the engine makes little to no sense to anyone trying to look at it from another fighting game's standpoint on why things works.

It's stuff like these that make us theorize that MK9 started as a 3D game before being shifted to 2D midway through development. While this has brought some interesting things to the table - such as strings making it so that you need to commit to offense - it's also brought about some things that are detrimental to the game (i.e. stance specific shit because hitsphere's are resolving on the Z-Axis), the weird, non-hitstun based combo system.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

i believe counter hit mechanics only work well in games that are link based (like SF and a few GG characters are link based such as Slayer) or chain route based (like ark system games or marvel). MK and NRS games are mostly based on strings and normal cancels. I don't see a benefit of a counter hit (aside from more damage) when normally in order to combo you would need to complete an entire string (unless its an air confirm, obviously)

im not saying it COULDN'T work, I just dont see it being too useful, unless they allow combos to be continued by hit stun (how links work)

for the most part, counter hits normally give extra frames to confirm into a combo, essentially by adding more hit stun on the counter hit.

 

[Heroic_Legacy]

i believe counter hit mechanics only work well in games that are link based (like SF and a few GG characters are link based such as Slayer) or chain route based (like ark system games or marvel). MK and NRS games are mostly based on strings and normal cancels. I don't see a benefit of a counter hit (aside from more damage) when normally in order to combo you would need to complete an entire string (unless its an air confirm, obviously)

im not saying it COULDN'T work, I just dont see it being too useful, unless they allow combos to be continued by hit stun (how links work)

for the most part, counter hits normally give extra frames to confirm into a combo, essentially by adding more hit stun on the counter hit.

Tekken VF and Soul Calibur are all string based 3D games that have a counter hit system deeply embedded into their gameplay. The biggest difference between these games and MK9 was that MK9's strings were always natural combos. Obviously adding counter hits to the system wouldn't help much at all in MK9 no. But MKX might be radically different system wise so who knows if counter hits will actually be necessary in the system or just a small addition to gameplay. Just wait and see? I'm pretty sure nothing that a forum will say can change the way a game is shaped via system mechanics this late in development.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

Tekken VF and Soul Calibur are all string based 3D games that have a counter hit system deeply embedded into their gameplay. The biggest difference between these games and MK9 was that MK9's strings were always natural combos. Obviously adding counter hits to the system wouldn't help much at all in MK9 no. But MKX might be radically different system wise so who knows if counter hits will actually be necessary in the system or just a small addition to gameplay. Just wait and see? I'm pretty sure nothing that a forum will say can change the way a game is shaped via system mechanics this late in development.

correct me if im wrong.. but in those games counter hit mostly gave you a juggle opprotunity right? i know alot of counter hits in VF just gave extra damage. With what you were saying about mk9, thats pretty much what i was getting at. i believe for a counter hit system to be implemented there need to be a few key things.

Fast jabs (2 to 3 frames) with fast recovery, allows for a more indepth footsies game with preemptive whiff punishing and frame trapping

Hitstun based combos (links, for the most part)

and TRUE reversals (AKA no free wake ups for ANY character), this because a punish is normally noted as counter hit, reading and punishing a reversal attempt should be a VERY big focal point of any fighting game. If MKX has true reversals.. then I have high hopes for the game

 

[Protagonist_1]

A counter hit is not a move or really anything you activate.

All it is, is when you hit someone during the start up of one of their moves.

Like say, in MK9, if you D1 someone just as they are starting the animation of their D1, your D1 would count as a counter hit. (though obviously it doesn't since MK doesn't have counter hits, this is just an example)

So if you D1 did like 8% damage normally, if it hits as a counter hit it would do 10% damage.

In some games, mostly 3D ones, sometimes moves have extra properties if they hit as a counter. Like say a normal that would normally just knock them away, if it hits as a counter would cause a launch state.

That's it, it's not a very complicated mechanic, or anything fancy. Just you do more damage if you hit someone in their start up frames.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head right here. Compared to any other mechanic NRS has added to their games, adding counterhits would probably be the easiest and safest one in my opinion. Personally I would love to see it in the next mk10, but if it's not there then no matter.

I'm more familiar with counterhits in tekken (my favorite fighting game franchise) in which counterhits grant extra frame advantage, crumble state, and hard knock downs, which can lead into juggles.

Even some characters can be built around this as well. Steve fox in tekken is an excellent example. His playstyle is very linear (imo) and his regular damage isn't all that great, but with a counterhit he's especially dangerous. His most notorious move is his b1, which on counterhit leads to a full combo and grants extra damage.

Personally, I feel counterhits can add more depth to the game overall. How NRS could implement it is up to them. I personally would like to see it used mainly to prevent useless normals in mk, and gave them a purpose.

 

[ICED_MOON22]

I think it would work fine as a example sub-zeros ice slide on counter to the opponent could be like mileenas ball in mk9 and no counter ice slide will be normal

 

[d3v]

i believe counter hit mechanics only work well in games that are link based (like SF and a few GG characters are link based such as Slayer) or chain route based (like ark system games or marvel). MK and NRS games are mostly based on strings and normal cancels. I don't see a benefit of a counter hit (aside from more damage) when normally in order to combo you would need to complete an entire string (unless its an air confirm, obviously)

im not saying it COULDN'T work, I just dont see it being too useful, unless they allow combos to be continued by hit stun (how links work)

for the most part, counter hits normally give extra frames to confirm into a combo, essentially by adding more hit stun on the counter hit.

If it adds more hitstun, then it would mean that you could do longer combos. Whether or not the system is link, chain or string based has no bearing on this.

Hitstun based combos (links, for the most part)

This implies that non-link systems aren't based on hitstun, which is false. Any proper combo system, be it link, chain or even string based, is based on hitstun (except for NRS' implementation for some godforsaken reason).

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

If it adds more hitstun, then it would mean that you could do longer combos. Whether or not the system is link, chain or string based has no bearing on this.

This implies that non-link systems aren't based on hitstun, which is false. Any proper combo system, be it link, chain or even string based, is based on hitstun (except for NRS' implementation for some godforsaken reason).

which is what im saying (as far as NRS)