Concerns About MK11

[Chernyy Volk]

So I know I'm a meme to some on this site, and maybe some of you think I rage quit on you during this beta or the stress test and had to pop off about it yada yada yada but I want to talk about this game. I'm not rage quitting, this game SO FAR, knowing it can change in the future, is really boring. Both from a spectator AND players point of view at the highest level if you're trying hard. So... I've played this pre-order beta 8+ hours a day, and when we're talking about like, I'm REALLY trying hard to win, there are a few things I'm already picking up on that're going to hurt this game if it stays as is. Before I go into the negative, I'll talk about what I really like about this game so far.

Footsies feel great

The strategy around bar expenditure in this game is really cool. Meter management still exists, but it's now more proactive management directly related to gameplay instead of gain optimization.

Mind game heavy up close which I dig. There's a distinct lack of hit confirms in this game that aren't highs or stubby at the first normal.

Strategizing KB usage is also pretty engaging, even if so far the meta amounts to basically saving them for round two/final round.

So my gripes with the game, as we're currently experiencing it, are...

1: Passivity is rewarded even more than in Injustice 2. None of these characters can force each other to act except Skarlet at CERTAIN points on screen with tongue, and Scorpion because Fireball is a mid.

2: Custom variations turn the game into MOBA tier hard counter picking based on move differentials, this contributes to 1. This is exactly what I was worried about with people begging for customs to be allowed in tournament. The worst case scenario is already true in microcosm in this beta. I've had sets where the only alternative for me and the other guy to not fight an uphill battle was to go to character select EVERY LOSS and re-counterpick.

3: Every character has oki that completely circumvents the wake up system entirely, rendering it almost non-existent. Due to the plethora of wakeup options, if you're the guy with the life lead, oki is pointless. You gain so much advantage and power by just using that knockdown to walk backwards the other guy just doesn't get a chance to use them + everyones already found wake-up roll stuffs with buttons.

4: Launch MKX style variable blockstun/punishment inconsistencies that I find absolutely maddening. I know it's a beta, I just feel like they would've ironed this out by now considering this game is on a new engine. Perfect reversal punishes with say, Scorpion's Demon Dash are imperceptibly unreliable because the distance line between punishable at this space but not this one is literally micro inches.

I'll discuss with people in more detail as you guys respond, but I just want to know if anyone else here has felt, or noticed ANY of this besides me?

 

[SaltShaker]

So my gripes with the game, as we're currently experiencing it, are...

No mention of the absurdity of the Fatal Blow mechanic in it's current form? You let me down.

1: Passivity is rewarded even more than in Injustice 2. None of these characters can force each other to act except Skarlet at CERTAIN points on screen with tongue, and Scorpion because Fireball is a mid.

Disagree. Not only is there only five characters, but how do they not "force each other to act"? Are you actually arguing that if you are say, up in life, Baraka or Kabal can't force you to act? Can't force you into decisions when you weren't comfortable? Sounds nonsensical.

2: Custom variations turn the game into MOBA tier hard counter picking based on move differentials, this contributes to 1. This is exactly what I was worried about with people begging for customs to be allowed in tournament. The worst case scenario is already true in microcosm in this beta. I've had sets where the only alternative for me and the other guy to not fight an uphill battle was to go to character select EVERY LOSS and re-counterpick.

If you're counter picking in customs you'd likely counter pick in variations. Yea if you're matched up against a character or setup you'd prefer to use Set-A, but that's no different than variation-A. The factor here is that instead of using that "one variation because it's by far the best", you can adjust your special moves. Some MUs you might feel you want to run back because you lost, but feel you could have won with better play using your favorite set. Other MUs you might say "well he switched to Scorpion and I lost, so let me adjust my specials for this MU". That's way better than variations where 2/3 of the variations rot in the cemetery.

3: Every character has oki that completely circumvents the wake up system entirely, rendering it almost non-existent. Due to the plethora of wakeup options, if you're the guy with the life lead, oki is pointless. You gain so much advantage and power by just using that knockdown to walk backwards the other guy just doesn't get a chance to use them + everyones already found wake-up roll stuffs with buttons.

Character dependent. I highly doubt Sonya and Jacqui are going to always be walking back on oki with the life lead against a Skarlet MU. That's fine strategy to lose the life lead. Of course there are options to defeat WUs though. I mean that's every fighting game ever. There's isn't a universal option that "defeats all WU options simultaneously" so there isn't anything wrong here at all.

4: Launch MKX style variable blockstun/punishment inconsistencies that I find absolutely maddening. I know it's a beta, I just feel like they would've ironed this out by now considering this game is on a new engine. Perfect reversal punishes with say, Scorpion's Demon Dash are imperceptibly unreliable because the distance line between punishable at this space but not this one is literally micro inches.

I agree 100% here.

I'll discuss with people in more detail as you guys respond, but I just want to know if anyone else here has felt, or noticed ANY of this besides me?

I have a few of my own concerns, but most of them aren't what you listed here.

 

[Rathalos]

I mean I agree the game is going to be watching paint dry dull to watch, but I'm having a blast playing it.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

No mention of the absurdity of the Fatal Blow mechanic in it's current form? You let me down.



Disagree. Not only is there only five characters, but how do they not "force each other to act"? Are you actually arguing that if you are say, up in life, Baraka or Kabal can't force you to act? Can't force you into decisions when you weren't comfortable? Sounds nonsensical.



If you're counter picking in customs you'd likely counter pick in variations. Yea if you're matched up against a character or setup you'd prefer to use Set-A, but that's no different than variation-A. The factor here is that instead of using that "one variation because it's by far the best", you can adjust your special moves. Some MUs you might feel you want to run back because you lost, but feel you could have won with better play using your favorite set. Other MUs you might say "well he switched to Scorpion and I lost, so let me adjust my specials for this MU". That's way better than variations where 2/3 of the variations rot in the cemetery.



Character dependent. I highly doubt Sonya and Jacqui are going to always be walking back on oki with the life lead against a Skarlet MU. That's fine strategy to lose the life lead. Of course there are options to defeat WUs though. I mean that's every fighting game ever. There's isn't a universal option that "defeats all WU options simultaneously" so there isn't anything wrong here at all.



I agree 100% here.



I have a few of my own concerns, but most of them aren't what you listed here.

So on the note of Baraka and Kabal, you DEFINITELY can lame them out. I've played my friends, top players, etc. The strategy, the go to, for both of us if it's not Jade or Skarlet in the MU is to get the life lead and run away the whole time. Especially on corner escape interactable stages. If you have the life lead, the less you do, the better it is. What's Kabal gonna do? Nomad dash? IA gas jump so you can instant j1 him on reaction into full combo? What's Baraka gonna do against Scorpion with Demon Dash? f44 is block punisahble, b2 is flawless blockable into a button punish, no reversal required, you can easily flawless block MB spark so the second fireball does no damage, passivity is definitely king in this game when you have the lead. You can even lame out Jade. Glaive is easily flawless blockable MB or no, air glaive is purely reactable by Kabal with IA straight saw or Scorp tele, her only options are the shitty run or yolo shadow kicking in neutral, which if you're ahead on life KNOCKS YOU AWAY FROM HER, getting hit by it literally plays to your advantage.

NRS is already addressing fatal blows, so no need to talk about that.

As for my point on variations, I don't think you understand the scope of how degen it's already becoming. You can entirely invalidate someones loadout by simply switching one move out in a lot of cases. Even in MKX, Variation tools still had SOME kind of use. In this game, the name of the game is counter-picking based on loadout with options that eliminate your opponents options ENTIRELY. It really is that simple.

 

[SaltShaker]

So on the note of Baraka and Kabal, you DEFINITELY can lame them out. I've played my friends, top players, etc. The strategy, the go to, for both of us if it's not Jade or Skarlet in the MU is to get the life lead and run away the whole time. Especially on corner escape interactable stages. If you have the life lead, the less you do, the better it is. What's Kabal gonna do? Nomad dash? IA gas jump so you can instant j1 him on reaction into full combo? What's Baraka gonna do against Scorpion with Demon Dash? f44 is block punisahble, b2 is flawless blockable into a button punish, no reversal required, you can easily flawless block MB spark so the second fireball does no damage, passivity is definitely king in this game when you have the lead. You can even lame out Jade. Glaive is easily flawless blockable MB or no, air glaive is purely reactable by Kabal with IA straight saw or Scorp tele, her only options are the shitty run or yolo shadow kicking in neutral, which if you're ahead on life KNOCKS YOU AWAY FROM HER, getting hit by it literally plays to your advantage.

Alright that's fine, but you're still speaking from a literal 5 character beta perspective. Where you even yourself say "The strategy, the go to, for both of us if it's not Jade or Skarlet in the MU is to get the life lead and run away the whole time". Well yes, given the five characters, this makes perfect sense. Some characters will lame you if they are up on life. Some will pressure you to force you to have to make a hard read. Some will etc. If you force them into a mistake then you can hurt/combo/kill/etc them. You seem to know this already, so I don't see the issue. When there are more characters and more play, I highly doubt Johnny, Jacqui, Kung Lao, Jax, etc will be just "running away from you with life leads" given their movesets against many characters. They'll be forcing you to commit to decisions and take high risk choices because you'll be down on life. Your judging the meta way, way, way too soon on this without context of the full game, and how characters will play out in their MUs.

NRS is already addressing fatal blows, so no need to talk about that.

We can never talk enough about this atrocity.

As for my point on variations, I don't think you understand the scope of how degen it's already becoming. You can entirely invalidate someones loadout by simply switching one move out in a lot of cases. Even in MKX, Variation tools still had SOME kind of use. In this game, the name of the game is counter-picking based on loadout with options that eliminate your opponents options ENTIRELY. It really is that simple.

What? What tool do you switch out with Kabal that will "entirely invalidate" Baraka? What do you switch with Skarlet that will "entirely invalidate" Scorpion? Hyperbole on steroids here. What you're saying is happening here isn't actually happening. You're not going to master the game, play your favorite setup, lose a close game, and then just switch because reasons. Not when you only have 2/3 and you have to trust your next match to a win.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

1: Passivity is rewarded even more than in Injustice 2. None of these characters can force each other to act except Skarlet at CERTAIN points on screen with tongue, and Scorpion because Fireball is a mi

This is simply not true, every character when played right can make the opponent play thier game. It's neutral based.
Kabal and Jade are great examples.

2: Custom variations turn the game into MOBA tier hard counter picking based on move differentials, this contributes to 1. This is exactly what I was worried about with people begging for customs to be allowed in tournament. The worst case scenario is already true in microcosm in this beta. I've had sets where the only alternative for me and the other guy to not fight an uphill battle was to go to character select EVERY LOSS and re-counterpick.

I disagree completely. Having variations cause the same problem with new concerns added. If we have variations we could not get the best moves or our style of moves to play optimally.
Adding to that we shouldn't be focusing on variation vs custom rather we should focus on balance of the characters and moves so that it's not heavy one-sided like mkx.

3: Every character has oki that completely circumvents the wake up system entirely, rendering it almost non-existent. Due to the plethora of wakeup options, if you're the guy with the life lead, oki is pointless. You gain so much advantage and power by just using that knockdown to walk backwards the other guy just doesn't get a chance to use them + everyones already found wake-up roll stuffs with buttons.

There are plenty options to wakup that create a guess game for the agressor. Roll forward/backward is a guess game and a good way to avoid pressure. On top of that we have Armored stuff which is very good when used at the right time. The launching option is very risky but strong and can be used on read.

I feel the characters are pretty balanced as is even though each character has strong tools they have obvious weaknesses.

 

[GLoRToR]

I had the same concerns about variations. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

This is simply not true, every character when played right can make the opponent play thier game. It's neutral based.
Kabal and Jade are great examples.



I disagree completely. Having variations cause the same problem with new concerns added. If we have variations we could not get the best moves or our style of moves to play optimally.
Adding to that we shouldn't be focusing on variation vs custom rather we should focus on balance of the characters and moves so that it's not heavy one-sided like mkx.



There are plenty options to wakup that create a guess game for the agressor. Roll forward/backward is a guess game and a good way to avoid pressure. On top of that we have Armored stuff which is very good when used at the right time. The launching option is very risky but strong and can be used on read.

I feel the characters are pretty balanced as is even though each character has strong tools they have obvious weaknesses.

You didn't read this post or have not played somebody whose good at this beta as it stands.

If I play Hayatei, all it is is get the life lead and run away. if I play Nubcakes, same thing. If I play Alexander The 1, same thing.

I can agree about the moves. Some of these moves feel like they need to be base moves but it still doesn't change the fact these are moves meant to go together. Not moves meant to be scrapped together like the custom variation system suggests. The lack of move synergy to begin with means only one loadout per character will see play most of the time.

Also you basically ignored my point about waking up. The guy with the life lead doesn't even have to play this game. He just walks back and resets neutral, or hovers outside of your u3 range in case you try it to whiff punish. You do not get to do anything but wake-up block at the highest level I've played in this beta thus far.

 

[Pakman]

I have mixed feelings about custom variations.

On one hand, some tools are just too good not to have, and without which, the characters just feel lacking. E.g: Baraka with gutted is a complete character - now he feels like he's been designed as this heavy damaging brute. Baraka without gutted feels like something is missing in his kit and he's just relying on his (derpy) oki blender.

On the other hand, for customs to rock we also need some visual way to see what options our opponents have equipped...which is why we have variation names in the first place

I think we should let the game rock as is for a while - at least one major - before any drastic changes are made. Time enough for a meta and counter meta to establish.


Fatal blows and 50/50 throws can dead tho.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Considering you can parry wake up attacks in this game, the parries in this game seem to have pretty generous windows, and pretty much all of the rushdown characters have a parry option, I don’t think walking back is really an always optimal option.

 

[portent]

Biggest concern so far? The more I play, the more I realize how much its just a re-skinned MKX without run.

 

[deathstroke187]

Biggest concern so far? The more I play, the more I realize how much its just a re-skinned MKX without run.

what ?

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Biggest concern so far? The more I play, the more I realize how much its just a re-skinned MKX without run.

You have my attention. Elaborate.

 

[portent]

You have my attention. Elaborate.

Mind you, I've still don't plan on playing competitively, but the more I play, the more I realize that good players aren't really playing neutral, they're up in your face, MKX style, mixing you up 50/50's all day, save for Jade, who just has a bad case of get a life lead and get the runs.

I wasn't a fan of the aggressive 50/50 game in MKX, and if this game is going to turn into that, color me disappointed.

Then again, I could also just be guessing wrong all the time. That's not fun either.

 

[DuskyDile]

I’m not a huge fan of slow paced fighting games like this, I agree that spectating this game is gonna be super dull and boring, it’s fun to play right now cause it’s new and fresh but later down the line I think it might get stale real quick, faster games are just more exciting to watch and play.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

@portent
Skarlet's b2 is quite slow and -13 (?) on block.
Scorpion's misery blade isn't a base special, costs 2 slots, and both the OH and low are full combo punishable. Also, neither lead to a combo.
Kabal's low hook is full combo punishable, and f4~low saw MB doesn't combo on hit. Not to mention it costs resources to make it safe.
Baraka has the low stab (-7?) but again, it doesn't lead to a combo and it isn't baseline.

I think we'll be fine.

 

[Swindle]

Right on time.

 

[portent]

@portent
Skarlet's b2 is quite slow and -13 (?) on block.
Scorpion's misery blade isn't a base special, costs 2 slots, and both the OH and low are full combo punishable. Also, neither lead to a combo.
Kabal's low hook is full combo punishable, and f4~low saw MB doesn't combo on hit. Not to mention it costs resources to make it safe.
Baraka has the low stab (-7?) but again, it doesn't lead to a combo and it isn't baseline.

I think we'll be fine.

That's kind of what I've been saying. I am probably just guessing wrong all the time, LOL. I can prob be the best "loser" by just doing the exact opposite of what I'm thinking and suddenly I'll make the right decision, LOL.

Plus, without the full roster, I'm sure I just don't like any of the 5 characters so far. If not, there's always single player content, LOL.

 

[M2Dave]

Also you basically ignored my point about waking up. The guy with the life lead doesn't even have to play this game. He just walks back and resets neutral, or hovers outside of your u3 range in case you try it to whiff punish. You do not get to do anything but wake-up block at the highest level I've played in this beta thus far.

What is wrong with such meta, which was applied against safe armored wake up moves (along with neutral jumping) in Mortal Kombat X? Are you also inferring the wake up system is weak? I think defensive options in this game appear to be adequate and certainly better than anything witnessed in Mortal Kombat X.

I do understand your argument about the advantages of a life lead, but this advantage is present in most contemporary fighting games, including Street Fighter V and Tekken 7. You have to earn a successful hit in order to have an opportunity for a comeback. Mortal Kombat X has spoiled the NRS community, including me, because all you had to was run to mid range and apply pressure and/or 50/50 mix ups down your opponent's throat.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

What is wrong with such meta, which was applied against safe armored wake up moves (along with neutral jumping) in Mortal Kombat X? Are you also inferring the wake up system is weak? I think defensive options in this game appear to be adequate and certainly better than anything witnessed in Mortal Kombat X.

I do understand your argument about the advantages of a life lead, but this advantage is present in most contemporary fighting games, including Street Fighter V and Tekken 7. You have to earn a successful hit in order to have an opportunity for a comeback. Mortal Kombat X has spoiled the NRS community, including me, because all you had to was run to mid range and apply pressure and/or 50/50 mix ups down your opponent's throat.

Hey @General M2Dave big fan of your podcast rants. Basically, you''re correct in that FG's are the cat and mouse of the life lead, that isn't the problem. The problem is it is the strongest I've ever seen it be in a FG to the point where the neutral lacks depth. Once I have the life lead in this game, footsies etc become completely irrelevant. I'm not turtling, or jockeying position, I'm just running away, especially until I hit my invincible corner escape. Skarlet is the only character in this beta that can discourage you because she can widdle you down with tongue, but even Jade gets lamed out the minute she's down on life. Her zoning isn't dynamic enough to stop me from just flawless blocking and jumping at full screen and she's forced to take ALL risk to recover her life lead. This isn't so prevalent in SFV T7 etc where arenas are comparatively smaller, character movement is faster and so on.

 

[REO]

Biggest annoyance with the game are the wall dive kick interactables that are there forever during the match. No joke, I sometimes find myself intentionally going towards to the corner with the dive kick interactable because of how ridiculous and potent the mindgame of having that option available is.

I don't understand why the wall dive kick interactables aren't one-time use like every other interactable in the game. Obviously it's too late for NRS to implement this now, since they would have to animate an indication for every stage with the wall dive kick interactable. Something like a character running up a wooden plank that breaks upon use, or a chunk of wall debris falling apart would be great to see if it's used or not.

On stages like Special Forces Desert Command that do not have infinite-wall dive kicking interactables, being put in the corner actually means a HUGE deal because many characters get access to throw loops, staggers, and corner combos. Players would not be content walking all the way to the corner if it meant there isn't a dive kick interactable there to potentially bail them out.

There's a night and day difference when you're walking Jade down on Special Forces Desert Command stage vs Black Dragon Fight Club stage.

 

[DDustiNN]

So far my only complaint is that a Fatal Blow can kill me when I’m not even in Fatal Blow life range myself. That’s giant bullshit. But apparently they’re already fixing that.

I guess if I were to pick a second complaint it’d be the over-reliance of d1 and d4 to get out of fucking everything.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

You didn't read this post or have not played somebody whose good at this beta as it stands.

If I play Hayatei, all it is is get the life lead and run away. if I play Nubcakes, same thing. If I play Alexander The 1, same thing.

I can agree about the moves. Some of these moves feel like they need to be base moves but it still doesn't change the fact these are moves meant to go together. Not moves meant to be scrapped together like the custom variation system suggests. The lack of move synergy to begin with means only one loadout per character will see play most of the time.

Also you basically ignored my point about waking up. The guy with the life lead doesn't even have to play this game. He just walks back and resets neutral, or hovers outside of your u3 range in case you try it to whiff punish. You do not get to do anything but wake-up block at the highest level I've played in this beta thus far.

Watch some videos of high level play and you will realize they are using wakeup options. I simply disagree with your claims, I provided reasons why I hope you review what I wrote and test it. Seems to me you ignored me and that you have predetermined opinions on counter picking/Custom variations. What you said doesn't make sense.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I guess if I were to pick a second complaint it’d be the over-reliance of d1 and d4 to get out of fucking everything.

Just counter poke it's part of neutral

 

[M2Dave]

Hey @General M2Dave big fan of your podcast rants. Basically, you''re correct in that FG's are the cat and mouse of the life lead, that isn't the problem. The problem is it is the strongest I've ever seen it be in a FG to the point where the neutral lacks depth. Once I have the life lead in this game, footsies etc become completely irrelevant. I'm not turtling, or jockeying position, I'm just running away, especially until I hit my invincible corner escape. Skarlet is the only character in this beta that can discourage you because she can widdle you down with tongue, but even Jade gets lamed out the minute she's down on life. Her zoning isn't dynamic enough to stop me from just flawless blocking and jumping at full screen and she's forced to take ALL risk to recover her life lead. This isn't so prevalent in SFV T7 etc where arenas are comparatively smaller, character movement is faster and so on.

Your points are valid and well-taken.

First of all, everyone agrees the invincible corner escapes have to be limited to one use per round as every other interactable object in the game. Second of all, everyone also agrees that forward dashes need to have less recovery frames, which they will upon the game's release, according to Boon.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the result of a game that strictly revolves around footsies is limited rush down as well as zoning. You end up with a game in which the most rewarding option is not to over-commit and make mistakes so you simply walk back.