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Question - Sub-Zero Clone Glitch? Nope...explained inside

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
Ok, so I know that I'm rushing this up but I would like the opinion of the community about how/if this will change the Sub/Jax match-up. What you are seeing in the video is Jax putting out his 11 string in response to a blocked b2. Jax's arm phases through the clone, allowing him to touch Sub and remove the clone from the screen. This is applicable with regular clone and EX clone and it works against a Sub duck blocking and stand blocking after the blocked b2 which can be seen in the video. It also seems that it should work mid-screen. In the rare case that he doesn't touch Sub, you are safe and can potentially block break the clone by ducking. I haven't tested that far. Again, I rushed this to the forum. This potentially has tons of applications but as of right now, it's dangerous for Sub to throw out a b2 because it is reactable in most cases and a blocked b2 means the clone is gone.

Concerns
-Sub could back-dash but he relinquishes pressure if he does that.
-Really that's it. Anything positive is good at this point in the match-up.

I plan on posting this to the Anti-Grandmaster guide that I have in the works along with some other strings that Jax can whiff to punish Sub for a follow up attack after a clone is placed. Obligatory hump and X-Ray at the end! Gotta keep digging!


Punishing the d4 follow up attempt

Safer option for d4 punish
 
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LaidbackOne

Scrubby nice guy
Would experiment with this by myself but Im waiting for Sony to fix my goddamn controller (fuck Ps4). What happens when Sub does a d4 after you block his b2?
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
Would experiment with this by myself but Im waiting for Sony to fix my goddamn controller (fuck Ps4). What happens when Sub does a d4 after you block his b2?
35% punish for a bar, back to mid-screen. You catch him on the way down because b2 is so negative. You would have to make that read though, you can't hit confirm that. Worst case 111 hard knockdown or 11xxGG.

Edit: I take that back because I mistimed the d4. The d4 hits. Ignore what I said about punishing.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
If you scout a d4 to counter your 11, you can (1)23 into a punish. The 1 will whiff and the 2 will start the combo.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
There's a variety of moves after the Klone that I would use. Not just B2. Let me test this one against Jax, since GM is my main.
 

LaidbackOne

Scrubby nice guy
There's a variety of moves after the Klone that I would use. Not just B2. Let me test this one against Jax, since GM is my main.
Umm, this obviously is a video commited to punishing a blocked B2 from behind a clone (lol). We know you can use multiple moves without any risk while in this situation. What's your point again?
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
There's a variety of moves after the Klone that I would use. Not just B2. Let me test this one against Jax, since GM is my main.
Absolutely. My point is that it applies MAINLY to after a blocked b2 when the clone is already on the screen. More testing necessary.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
Umm, this obviously is a video commited to punishing a blocked B2 from behind a clone (lol). We know you can use multiple moves without any risk while in this situation. What's your point again?
I hate to be negative but you are absolutely correct. If you are reading that response as "well I just wouldn't use b2" then....c'mon man.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
Added a couple options in OP to deal with the following combination: string into clone, blocked b2, d4
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Umm, this obviously is a video commited to punishing a blocked B2 from behind a clone (lol). We know you can use multiple moves without any risk while in this situation. What's your point again?
My point would be that any physical contact with the Klone would render the very character frozen.

I tested it. It seems that at a certain distance the 2nd punch doesn't connect. We usually do this to get close to the opponent just in case he tries to attack and gets frozen.

I tested it in other distances with B12, D4, etc.

Only at the certain distance the 2nd hit whiffs and doesn't hit the klone.

Try hitting the klone a bit closer, and you'll see. It's not a glitch.

And if you like, try doing Dash Back.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
My point would be that any physical contact with the Klone would render the very character frozen.

I tested it. It seems that at a certain distance the 2nd punch doesn't connect. We usually do this to get close to the opponent just in case he tries to attack and gets frozen.

I tested it in other distances with B12, D4, etc.

Only at the certain distance the 2nd hit whiffs and doesn't hit the klone.

Try hitting the klone a bit closer, and you'll see. It's not a glitch.

And if you like, try doing Dash Back.
I just got it to work against b12 clone cancel. The issue is the clone. So less about Jax and more about the inefficiencies of the clone.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
Edited the title to reflect these changes. Will also edit the OP to reflect the new findings that it is related to the clone more so than Jax. The entire cast probably has an attack that will phase through the clone, forcing Sub to move or attack to negate this.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Edited the title to reflect these changes. Will also edit the OP to reflect the new findings that it is related to the clone more so than Jax. The entire cast probably has an attack that will phase through the clone, forcing Sub to move or attack to negate this.
Not the entire cast has it. A selected few have that ability, and especially the weaponry variations, like Leatherface, Bartitsu Bo, War God Kotal Khan, etc. And, pre-patch, it used to be Alien's Tail Snag, but they fixed it. Now, we have D'Vorah that has this ability, since her claws phase through the IK. Same goes for TG Raiden's 112/1122/B112/B1122. Now you know what's going on.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
I even put the clone as close as I could and I could still remove the clone from the screen. My issue here is that it is directly related to the positioning of Sub if I can remove the clone or not. Regardless, the clone does not extend ANYWHERE NEAR as far as it seems. It seems like as of this moment the clone's effective range begins in the very center of the asset, if you were to draw a vertical line through it symmetrically. I've gotten Liu Kang punching through the clones head a couple of times.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
Not the entire cast has it. A selected few have that ability, and especially the weaponry variations, like Leatherface, Bartitsu Bo, War God Kotal Khan, etc. And, pre-patch, it used to be Alien's Tail Snag, but they fixed it. Now, we have D'Vorah that has this ability, since her claws phase through the IK. Same goes for TG Raiden's 112/1122/B112/B1122. Now you know what's going on.
Can you explain what I'm referring to with my ability to punch into the CENTER of the clone though and not get frozen? And if so, why the hell does nobody use this? If a Sub does not position himself correctly in relation to his clone and blocked attacks in the corner, the clone is gone. And in the case of Jax, the ability to do whatever you want and stay behind the clone is completely removed. The Sub must respect this option and adjust the game-plan accordingly.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
I should also mention that with Jax, the closer you have the clone to me, the better chance I have of removing it.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Interesting. Let me tell you this. I use the F42/D4 to distance myself from the weaponry variations, because they have the ability to phase attack the IK with their weapons. I do that the moment I see my opponent that has this ability without the weapons, like D' Vorah. What would you do, if SZ only did the F42xxIK, and then keeps distanced from the IK? If you happened to attack, SZ would, of course, spam you with Shatter.

As for your question, that's what I would call this a problem with the certain distances leading not being frozen. Almost the whole cast has the same thing, but I guess nobody has figured it out. You're the first.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
Interesting. Let me tell you this. I use the F42/D4 to distance myself from the weaponry variations, because they have the ability to phase attack the IK with their weapons. I do that the moment I see my opponent that has this ability without the weapons, like D' Vorah. What would you do, if SZ only did the F42xxIK, and then keeps distanced from the IK? If you happened to attack, SZ would, of course, spam you with Shatter.
That's why I went by your word and tested every cancel. I'm removing the clone with Blood God as we speak.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
Interesting. Let me tell you this. I use the F42/D4 to distance myself from the weaponry variations, because they have the ability to phase attack the IK with their weapons. I do that the moment I see my opponent that has this ability without the weapons, like D' Vorah. What would you do, if SZ only did the F42xxIK, and then keeps distanced from the IK? If you happened to attack, SZ would, of course, spam you with Shatter.

As for your question, that's what I would call this a problem with the certain distances leading not being frozen. Almost the whole cast has the same thing, but I guess nobody has figured it out. You're the first.
Early response on my part but SMH. Sub been getting away with murder and nobody has noticed. To sum it up, Sub can't throw out b2 for free. It must be well placed. A low crushing move can counter the d4 follow up in every case. Also, whiffing behind the clone isn't necessarily a terrible thing, if you have a good idea of your opponent.

Also, 11 is safe from f42xx clone into shatter. Recovers quickly enough.
 
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Ok, so I know that I'm rushing this up but I would like the opinion of the community about how/if this will change the Sub/Jax match-up. What you are seeing in the video is Jax putting out his 11 string in response to a blocked b2. Jax's arm phases through the clone, allowing him to touch Sub and remove the clone from the screen. This is applicable with regular clone and EX clone and it works against a Sub duck blocking and stand blocking after the blocked b2 which can be seen in the video. It also seems that it should work mid-screen. In the rare case that he doesn't touch Sub, you are safe and can potentially block break the clone by ducking. I haven't tested that far. Again, I rushed this to the forum. This potentially has tons of applications but as of right now, it's dangerous for Sub to throw out a b2 because it is reactable in most cases and a blocked b2 means the clone is gone.

Concerns
-Sub could back-dash but he relinquishes pressure if he does that.
-Really that's it. Anything positive is good at this point in the match-up.

I plan on posting this to the Anti-Grandmaster guide that I have in the works along with some other strings that Jax can whiff to punish Sub for a follow up attack after a clone is placed. Obligatory hump and X-Ray at the end! Gotta keep digging!


Punishing the d4 follow up attempt

Safer option for d4 punish
reading between the lines, i think what you wanna say is that ice clone doesnt work as intended?
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
reading between the lines, i think what you wanna say is that ice clone doesnt work as intended?
Exactly. I originally thought that Jax had it made, however, further testing shows that the entire cast has an opportunity to do this.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
When they make Sub in MK11, please just let @Tom Brady oversee anything having to do with the Clone.

This is fucked up. Lol.
I wonder how many other subtle cases of this there are.
Yeah this is silly. I went to the lab and I confirmed that the clone is basically split down the middle. The half facing the opponent has no bearing on anything. It's the very center line that actually freezes people.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
@SneakyTortoise @Eldriken @Espio (all the ones I know off my head sorry) Is there any way this could get moved to the Sub Zero forum? I feel it's more appropriate seeing as this involves the clone more so than Jax and the entire cast has options.