Chip damage...

[Ares_Supreme]

One can enforce a change that satisfies both ends of the spectrum

Enforce? Wrong word.

Both ends of the spectrum? Hardly. This isn't Capcom. What is so hard to understand about that? It's like saying a Sonic game should have mushrooms and tunnels because Mario is more objectively successful. (admittedly that would be cool but you get my point)

But like I said before, I'm not here to blow anyone up, just defending a franchise i've grown up with and have come to love. Twenty years and counting.

 

[chackalacka]

Enforce? Wrong word.

Both ends of the spectrum? Hardly. This isn't Capcom. What is so hard to understand about that? It's like saying a Sonic game should have mushrooms and tunnels because Mario is more objectively successful. (admittedly that would be cool but you get my point)

But like I said before, I'm not here to blow anyone up, just defending a franchise i've grown up with and have come to love. Twenty years and counting.

Why is was Enforce the wrong word?

Im not saying it needs to be like Street Fighter, I am saying it needs to be adjusted to satisfy both casuals and competitive players. Sonic for example has aged badly, it could use similar tips from Mario to better itself, and at the same time keeping what makes it different.

Some people in here have suggested chip damage to be turned off when it gets to an inch of life. I dont know, I am not an expert in this, but I do believe MK needs a positive change.

 

[cambros22]

One can enforce a change that satisfies both ends of the spectrum

If you can get enough people to protest chip damage in MKX, by all means do so. I can tell you this, you will need a campaign, a lot of speeches to reach the massive amount of MKX players you want to influence, some method of boycotting MKX if they don't respond to your campaigning or agree to a deal that makes everyone in your party happy and Diligence in pushing your cause. I'll tell you this, it wont be easy and a lot of people will be hurt in the pursuit of your cause but if it's worth fighting for, I say good luck.

 

[feedyourcatbro]

I never actually said the game would be objectively better, but yeah... if 9/10 of the most popular franchises use mechanic X, and franchise Y is considered mechanically inferior by much of the global competitive sphere*... well, that's not coincidence.

* Asian and otherwise - the best FG players in my native Sweden dismiss it, and these boards just saw a debate concerning American aficionados who main other games not taking it seriously enough and blaming their disinterest on the numerous patches.

Call me an ignorant elitist if you wish, but I will not consider MK to be on the level of the other major franchises until it commands as much respect in the top circuits, worldwide. Then, I will chalk up my dissatisfaction to personal taste alone. I do not expect that to happen anytime soon, if ever. That doesn't mean I won't play it, or express my opinions on what I think are reasonable changes (the purpose of this thread and even this board, right?). Blind acceptance helps noone.

You have a very biased and skewed outlook, along with some really dumb expectations. If we were basing everything off the "respect in the top circuits", then we ought to be designing all our games off Tekken and Smash Melee. You're right about the discussion of reasonable changes, but the argument of removing something because another game doesn't have it is extremely stupid. Even more stupid considering SFV is moving away from the no chip normals on block (currently it's recoverable damage).

If your point is "this is a bad idea, it should change", make that point. These empty game and community comparisons contribute little, if anything.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Odds are people are going to block Shinnok considering his OH is reasonably short range and slow. 18f start is something that can be reacted to. So people tend to block low against Shinnok because the low starter is one of his better tools.

Hell sparks pushes people away, while being very plus, still doesn't give enough time to get that overhead started. So you put them in the block string of low start hell sparks combo, low start hell sparks combo and keep them going until you open them up.

Once you get the vortex, they block it, well its back to block strings. They don't block it and you get another combo in. Being meter dependent as his out, I'm not sure how you're going to setup that vortex while making it actually meaningful without your meter.

Outside of Necromancer I'm not sure what high level zoning you're talking about. Dark beam isn't that great a zoning tool while Imposters teleport is anti zoning at best since it only works in the air. See Shinnok jump better block the coming tp. So explain to me how Shinnok's block strings aren't a key part of his tool set?

18f is not reactable what the fuck are you smoking.

 

[Shark Tank]

18f is not reactable what the fuck are you smoking.

"But I react to it all the time man"

 

[umgogo]

I feel like this discussion is bifurcating: 1) is normal move chip beneficial or detrimental to this particular game? 2) are NRS games technically good/deep/balanced compared to the best FGs?

To be honest, I cannot give a qualified response to 1) - I'm just not good enough at the game to tell. I can say that it sounds very odd that zoning characters of all people would benefit from it (shouldn't rushdown characters gain more from their strings doing damage even on block?).

Spontaneously, a game that requires chip damage on all normals to sufficiently reward offensive play sounds like it would have poor tools for opening opponents up (and MK doesn't feel that way to me) or very strong defensive/reversal options (I understand effective anti-airs are scarce but some reversals lead to a bit too much damage).

Still, if you say chip damage on normals make this game better, I'll take your word for it.

Regarding 2)...

If we were basing everything off the "respect in the top circuits", then we ought to be designing all our games off Tekken and Smash Melee.

No, we just have to design them to be as good as the best. For instance, Arcana Heart 3 LOVE MAX!!!! strays quite far from the norm with its homing/Clash/Arcana selection systems, and IMO the skillful implementation of these features makes it one of the most solid FGs in recent years.

I can't shake the feeling that NRS have painted themselves into a corner by combining different ideas (old and new, 2D and 3D, common and unusual, good and bad - Fatal Fury 3, anyone?) without the know-how or attention to make them work together and become more than the sum of the parts. They couldn't very well start from scratch even with MK9, but the old MK engine just wasn't the most stable of grounds to build on. Much of this is a tad tricky to explain on paper, but MKX feels "uneven" to me - especially considering the high production values and top-notch presentation.

...and that's probably all I'll say on this topic for now. After all, BlazBlue: Chronophantasma Extend and the Predator patch both arrived today! :=)

 

[The_Tile]

I feel like this discussion is bifurcating: 1) is normal move chip beneficial or detrimental to this particular game? 2) are NRS games technically good/deep/balanced compared to the best FGs?

To be honest, I cannot give a qualified response to 1) - I'm just not good enough at the game to tell. I can say that it sounds very odd that zoning characters of all people would benefit from it (shouldn't rushdown characters gain more from their strings doing damage even on block?).

Spontaneously, a game that requires chip damage on all normals to sufficiently reward offensive play sounds like it would have poor tools for opening opponents up (and MK doesn't feel that way to me) or very strong defensive/reversal options (I understand effective anti-airs are scarce but some reversals lead to a bit too much damage).

Still, if you say chip damage on normals make this game better, I'll take your word for it.

Regarding 2)...



No, we just have to design them to be as good as the best. For instance, Arcana Heart 3 LOVE MAX!!!! strays quite far from the norm with its homing/Clash/Arcana selection systems, and IMO the skillful implementation of these features makes it one of the most solid FGs in recent years.

I can't shake the feeling that NRS have painted themselves into a corner by combining different ideas (old and new, 2D and 3D, common and unusual, good and bad - Fatal Fury 3, anyone?) without the know-how or attention to make them work together and become more than the sum of the parts. They couldn't very well start from scratch even with MK9, but the old MK engine just wasn't the most stable of grounds to build on. Much of this is a tad tricky to explain on paper, but MKX feels "uneven" to me - especially considering the high production values and top-notch presentation.

...and that's probably all I'll say on this topic for now. After all, BlazBlue: Chronophantasma Extend and the Predator patch both arrived today! :=)

I believe the whole chip damage thing just comes down to preference. People who are MK fans like it and others don't, so we should probably agree to disagree on that one.

However your second point is very valid. I feel NRS are pretty creative devs who like to try new things out. When it works out, it works out great. But I feel a lot of the time they don't fully understand the things they implement or even if that's what people wanted in the first place.

Also, I played MK9 up until MKX's release date and MKX definitely felt clunky at first. I always though Injustice felt really clunky too and it really turned me away from playing it. But after a few days playing I got used to it anyway, so it's not all that bad.

 

[Harlequin969]

18f is not reactable what the fuck are you smoking.

You're saying you're not going to react to Shinnok stopping and raising that leg up? I only say it's reactable since most of his pressure comes from his punches or that low kick. And considering not only is it long range but requires him to stop and then axe kick I figure you can see the change in attack and react. Maybe not online but in the flesh yeah.

 

[Zoidberg747]

You're saying you're not going to react to Shinnok stopping and raising that leg up? I only say it's reactable since most of his pressure comes from his punches or that low kick. And considering not only is it long range but requires him to stop and then axe kick I figure you can see the change in attack and react. Maybe not online but in the flesh yeah.

No, you will never be able to react to a 18f move. You can read he is going to do it but you cannot possibly react to it, especially when you also have to look for the low and throw. If you dont believe me, take this reaction test and see how you do:

http://www.teyah.net/milliablocker.html

 

[jmt]

OP is insane. GTFO