Character Powers: An Injustice in Balance

[King Checkmate]

Of course the best defence is to make sure he never gets an opportunity, and that is a legitimate step to handling DD. But I would also like some advice for what to do after he scores a knockdown and traits up.

Also, I think Lex's rep as a "heavy zoner" is a bit off. He controls space well with his traps, but his actual projectile game is pretty weak. Staff bolt is slow to start up, slow to travel, and can't be MBed - not a great projectile for stuffing a trait start up across the screen. Probes can't be used to stuff it, having them out might help prevent the DD player from trying trait though. Mine and orbital laser are not helpful in that way.

He has lots of ranged space controlling attacks, but he isn't able to just toss stuff out on reaction like Sinestro or DS. If anything Corp Charge would probably be his best bet if DD tries to trait up mid-screen or near a close knockdown.

WEll he is considered Heavy zoner because most of his moves are Zoning tools. And ''controlling space '' is what a zoner does, with or without projectiles....

A good defense is the best way to deal with Doomsday when trait is up and you are feeling the pressure.
Remember that Doomsday only has 1 command grab and its an Anti Air. His L1 grab is pretty fast yeah, but it will cost him some pressure. and the other one is his string 22,1+3 but after 22 you can interrupt the string. So overall a good defense is the best way to deal with DD. remember to cover his oki with d1df2 ( Low, Overhead,Low) and in any case that you can Neutral jump and use Corp charge to gain some distance.
Remember you can slow him down with accumulative zoning tools from lex, not to deal damage but to consume the time of his trait...

And as Skeletal minion posted, a little rude but true... Is not like You are gonna loose a match because DD uses a trait for 5 seconds and DD's Damage output potential is pretty weak overall...And its a bad match up for lex , yes of course, but not impossible to win my friend.

That my 2 cents....

 

[Wrenchfarm]

You said yourself he can d1 with the best of them. And even if he couldn't, you could always, I don't know... Block? I mean, oh no, it's a situation in a where Lex is at a slight disadvantage! You're acting like that one disadvantageous situation is enough to even begin discussion of nerfs or heavy-handedly altering a character, but it's not. "You know what I normally see those instances referred to as? A bad matchup," is what I would say, but that's hardly even enough by itself to make the matchup bad.

I actually really hope NR does not take this thread into consideration or at least with a huge heaping of salt (pun intended). Both the severity of strong or weak traits is being greatly overexaggerated, as well as the suggested "fixes" for things that aren't broken.

Meh, you keep wanting to characterize me as begging for DD nerfs. I'm not. What I'm saying - in this thread about trait balance - is that some traits do indeed seem to offer a lot more than others.

You're downplaying how good DDs trait is for whatever reason. I'm not saying it's instant death or anything, I'm saying its CRAZY good for one-button press. I don't think any character should have a button that negates 90% of another character offence and forces them into a totally defensive posture for 5 seconds. That's kinda ridiculous. DD needs ways to get in, but NR was too generous with that trait.

When I ask for legit ways to deal with it, what do we have? Spam D1 and block the barrage? Pretty weak.

But yeah, sure, it's just me being a nerf-crying baddie. We don't need to look at balance issues so long as we're always willing to claim it's up to the other player to level up.

 

[NY_Jailhouse]

Has anyone mentioned how useless cyborgs trait is? Up there with joker.

 

[King Checkmate]

, I'm saying its CRAZY good for one-button press..

So is Aquaman, Superman, Batman,GL, BA... i could go on. But the fact that DOOMSDAY is on the spotlight is because of players that have a character with DD as bad matchup. :3

 

[Qwark28]

Not let him activate it?
With a heavy zoner like lex and taking in consideration the 1.5-2 seconds it takes to activate it...Lex is a heavy zoner, if used correctly , doomsday SHOULD'T have a second to activate trait, all his time should go into trying to get in....
unless he connects a string like f23~4 that is...

characters with fast projectiles own a slow activation trait like DD's....

and we have people who still think lex is a zoner and inexperienced enough to think zoners shouldnt even give you a second to activate something simply because your character is a "zoner"

i laughed hard at that post.

 

[King Checkmate]

I laugh

and we have people who still think lex is a zoner and inexperienced enough to think zoners shouldnt even give you a second to activate something simply because your character is a "zoner"

i laughed hard at that post.

Lex is qualified as a zoner. He's not a Rush down character. Hes not a grab character.
Zoning is NOT about just throwing out projectiles, but controlling the space effectively with less risk than with physical attacks.
I think people who think they are way too experienced and yet still comment useless stuff are laughable.

Thing is , Lex has enough tools to put on pressure and avoid doomsday to activate his trait with some aggressive play.
True , Eventually DD will have a chance to activate trait, and then is time to activate defense mode LOL.

 

[RYX]

People give Doomsday way too much credit.

Lex is a setup character.

 

[Qwark28]

I laugh

Lex is qualified as a zoner. He's not a Rush down character. Hes not a grab character.
Zoning is NOT about just throwing out projectiles, but controlling the space effectively with less risk than with physical attacks.
I think people who think they are way too experienced and yet still comment useless stuff are laughable.

Thing is , Lex has enough tools to put on pressure and avoid doomsday to activate his trait with some aggressive play.
True , Eventually DD will have a chance to activate trait, and then is time to activate defense mode LOL.

Not eventually, you haven't fought a good doomsday or even seem to know how good he is.

There isn't just zoner/rushdown/grappler character brands FYI.

lex does not have good tools to keep any pressure, much less "aggressive play", the character is a joke because there is nothing you have to fear from his zoning because he needs so many setups, patience and careful planning for so little damage.

 

[King Checkmate]

Not eventually, you haven't fought a good doomsday or even seem to know how good he is.

There isn't just zoner/rushdown/grappler character brands FYI.

lex does not have good tools to keep any pressure, much less "aggressive play", the character is a joke because there is nothing you have to fear from his zoning because he needs so many setups, patience and careful planning for so little damage.

-I know how good Doomsday is, thats why i use him.Being good doesnt mean it needs nerf.
-''There isn't just zoner/rushdown/grappler character brands FYI.'' I know. I still think of Lex as a Zoner, since 7 out of 9 specials are long ranged moves.
-On the aggressive play part. Between unblockable satellite lasers , orbs and missiles and the corps charge to keep some distance , Lex an effectively put in some pressure going , at least enough to keep and advantage.Easy to do? nop. Doable, sure....


Point being , Doomsday is good yes. Needs nerf? Only on his 112 string....

 

[Qwark28]

-I know how good Doomsday is, thats why i use him.Being good doesnt mean it needs nerf.
-''There isn't just zoner/rushdown/grappler character brands FYI.'' I know. I still think of Lex as a Zoner, since 7 out of 9 specials are long ranged moves.
-On the aggressive play part. Between unblockable satellite lasers , orbs and missiles and the corps charge to keep some distance , Lex an effectively put in some pressure going , at least enough to keep and advantage.Easy to do? nop. Doable, sure....


Point being , Doomsday is good yes. Needs nerf? Only on his 112 string....

Zoners typically kill their opponents by projectiles and by keeping them far. Lex relies on setting up your tools to lure your opponent into traps. Lex does have half-good pressure but not enough to not give doomsday a second to activate trait like you said.

Where the hell did I even speak of nerfs...

 

[King Checkmate]

Zoners typically kill their opponents by projectiles and by keeping them far. Lex relies on setting up your tools to lure your opponent into traps. Lex does have half-good pressure but not enough to not give doomsday a second to activate trait like you said.

Where the hell did I even speak of nerfs...

The post is about nerfs or ''balancing'', so if you are saying Doomsday is too good i immediately assumed you were with the people requesting Nerfs, my bad (which would have been hilarious coming from a BA user thou) .

To finish this silly discussion :
-DD is a BAD MATCH UP for LEX. Nobody says this is not true.
-DD is good, his trait works well. Not argue there.
-Lex still can play against DD wisely and win.Its more skill dependent as always than character dependant but its hard.
-Needs nerf ? nope.

 

[Qwark28]

The post is about nerfs or ''balancing'', so if you are saying Doomsday is too good i immediately assumed you were with the people requesting Nerfs, my bad (which would have been hilarious coming from a BA user thou) .

To finish this silly discussion :
-DD is a BAD MATCH UP for LEX. Nobody says this is not true.
-DD is good, his trait works well. Not argue there.
-Lex still can play against DD wisely and win.Its more skill dependent as always than character dependant but its hard.
-Needs nerf ? nope.

I play my fair share of offline vs one of the best doomsdays atm, id be the first to complain about him getting nerfed.

My remark wasnt that dd wasnt a bad matchup for lex, my remark was made because you said doomsday shouldnt have time to activate his trait and that you should always pressure him not to along with him activate his trait "finally"

 

[King Checkmate]

I play my fair share of offline vs one of the best doomsdays atm, id be the first to complain about him getting nerfed.

My remark wasnt that dd wasnt a bad matchup for lex, my remark was made because you said doomsday shouldnt have time to activate his trait and that you should always pressure him not to along with him activate his trait "finally"

His trait is slow to activate.
It gets cancelled if hit and trait did not activate.(HE DOESNT loose it thou)
I see how you can shutdown a player that is stubbornly trying to activate D's trait, even with LEX.

Point given to you since one can activate into Trait out of certain strings.... but we meant different stuff i guess.

 

[Qwark28]

His trait is slow to activate.
It gets cancelled if hit and trait did not activate.(HE DOESNT loose it thou)
I see how you can shutdown a player that is stubbornly trying to activate D's trait, even with LEX.

Point given to you since one can activate into Trait out of certain strings.... but we meant different stuff i guess.

Which bring us back to my second point, a good doomsday wont be stubborn and wont let you hit him out of his trait and will pick the right time to activate it, even if its not from strings.

 

[King Checkmate]

Which bring us back to my second point, a good doomsday wont be stubborn and wont let you hit him out of his trait and will pick the right time to activate it, even if its not from strings.

Fair enough, so you think a good lex cant stand a chance against a good DD if his trait is activated... ?

 

[Error]

Black Adam gets a 23% throw and we get like 13 or 16 or some shit?

That's a just frame thing, which can be teched anyways, more likely than not you'll see him landing a 15-19% throw, which other characters with damage boosts should be able to accomplish.


P.S. buff cancel advantage of Black Adam's trait so I can get a jump in punch after d1xxtrait
#HeNeedsIt :tonyt

 

[TimTim]

That's a just frame thing, which can be teched anyways, more likely than not you'll see him landing a 15-19% throw, which other characters with damage boosts should be able to accomplish.


P.S. buff cancel advantage of Black Adam's trait so I can get a jump in punch after d1xxtrait
#HeNeedsIt :tonyt

Lol I'm too busy laughing at your signature/gif. Also I was using the 23% to make a point.

 

[Qwark28]

Fair enough, so you think a good lex cant stand a chance against a good DD if his trait is activated... ?

i think that its 7 3 in doomsdays favour.

 

[King Checkmate]

i think that its 7 3 in doomsdays favour.

I agree the match up is bad for Lex. So i'll leave it at this:

If lex is your character, the fact that he has bad match ups is not a reason to leave him.
for god's sake DD is one of my 2 Mains and my second main is pretty weak XD.
Getting better and devising strategies for certain match ups is the way to go....

Remember to abuse the fact DD hitbox is huge...

 

[AK Skeletal Minion]

Meh, you keep wanting to characterize me as begging for DD nerfs. I'm not. What I'm saying - in this thread about trait balance - is that some traits do indeed seem to offer a lot more than others.

You're downplaying how good DDs trait is for whatever reason. I'm not saying it's instant death or anything, I'm saying its CRAZY good for one-button press. I don't think any character should have a button that negates 90% of another character offence and forces them into a totally defensive posture for 5 seconds. That's kinda ridiculous. DD needs ways to get in, but NR was too generous with that trait.

When I ask for legit ways to deal with it, what do we have? Spam D1 and block the barrage? Pretty weak.

But yeah, sure, it's just me being a nerf-crying baddie. We don't need to look at balance issues so long as we're always willing to claim it's up to the other player to level up.

- It's not "CRAZY good" and I'm not underrating it at all. Read my long post.
- There are more ways to handle it than just those two ways and those two ways are indeed legitimate. Again, read my long post.
- I didn't call you a "baddie." You did.
- However, the fact that you just called BLOCKING for a whole five(!) seconds a "pretty weak" counter strategy says more than I ever could. The thought of someone actually being flustered about having to play real defense for such a minuscule period is straight laughable.

 

[Farpafraf]

Personally with my main(Sinestro) I have yet to find a way to handle DD but that doesn't mean anything I think he's only one of those character that played at a middle level can crush a middle level player.He has his strong points but isn't OP or broken in any way Phoenix in MVC3 was ,however I would still add a little more cooldown to his trait maybe balancing this nerf with other little buffs.
I have only played a few times with Lex and by also considering the fact that the game came out a month ago I still think he needs some heavy buff.
Quinn trait was just designed in a bad way like aquaman's one with the difference that a free break button it's more than usefull,in fighting games I hate random things and useless moves, her trait it's both random and worthless: I would give the player the opportunity to choose between the different options shorten its startup but balance it by doubling the cooldown and making the projectile no more combo confirmable or at least with a huge damage scaling.
Please tolerate my poor english

 

[SunLord5]

Joker trait sux Ha's really last like 4 seconds

The only char I use it against is Bane. I still have to learn how to use it against Doomsday and Grundy. Thats like 99% of his trait usage there, against only 3 chars. It should activate Ha's even when he doesn't parry and last until clashed or something. Heck don't have it buff anything except for his walk speed/dash speed. It's too much like hyper kombat.

 

[Dulllyanna]

Catwoman - I think it should have some additional property, like armor maybe. Something to make it more unique.

This is the only one I kinda sorta disagree with. Not because it'd be too strong or even that it wouldn't fit the character, just that Catwoman already has really good evasive/panicky moves. Also I'd rather it be an overhead or something since her b2 and f3 aren't very good lol, but that'd be a wonky change.

Anyways, Lobo's startup on shotgun is fine since he can safely get it off certain things ( confirm b12 hit into 4, bf3 knockdown), the problem is that the only useful one is the low shot, which if he doesn't land right up in their shit he gets almost nothing (3 db3 doesn't even work even close to its max range). At the least it should be adjusted so that they're launched higher and he can get bf3 from anywhere, if not more. The other shotgun specials should have something to justify using them as well, like more range, damage, hard knockdown into his staple dumb mixup or better block frames. I don't care about the effects it has on his strings that use his shotgun since they're pretty assy anyways, though putting cool stuff on those would certainly be nice. Getting more than one shell per charge would also good, and certainly not unreasonable unless low shot was hella buffed.

 

[MrMadden613]

DISCLAIMER:
On a regular basis I talk to an assload of Top FGC players about this and again Ill be the sacrificial lamb here and take the heat for something many WILL NOT, CAN NOT or will ever speak about pubicily. So prepare to blow me up........ Go!


Its a bit insane to me how some of the character's powers/traits in this game are completely unbalanced.

Now I know some people may jump in here and say "Dude Pig STFU game has been out for like 2 and a half hours we dont know anything about this game yet" But No I do know what Im talking about because it doesnt take 3 years to realize something so blatently obvious

You have characters in this game like Doomsday that has no issues getting in with a Power that defies all logic and increases an already existing strength.

This is Alright? Well Yes and No

Wellm For such dominant Traits in this game I feel they should be only active if you have to charge them?

Frost Power Charge makes sense
Sinestro Power Charge Makes sense
^^^These make sense because when these characters have them active they become even more dominante. Their traits/powers by design strengthen their design and therefor WORKING for it makes sense


Pig agreed 100% legit everything you said i feel i have thoght in the old brain lol

Flash
One of the most BALANCED traits imo in this whole game is Flash's Power
He is forced by DESIGN and the way the game is configured right now that he is not EVER able to use it successfully in braindead situations. Flash has to think because he cannot block when Power is active so it's best used on reaction to a whiff, punish, when an opponent jumps or off that move where he power slams or d2.

Deathstroke
I feel Deathstroke's is FINE, why? Because he has to sort of work for it by spacing and gunning you out and use it in a situation where he can't be knocked out of it because it does have a long ass start up.

Green Lantern:
Probably MY PERSONAL FAVORITE of what it means to be balanced. You took a "power" and when activated boosts your characters moves given them new abilities. This is neat and imo not OP

Raven - Awesome trait


Example are Trait/Powers that are not balanced or correct IMO:
Doomsday can get his all day (3 times a round avg) and it defies all wakeups, armor attacks, etc etc and he never has to work for it at all. Sure it has start up frames but those are a joke.

Batman's Bats currently are not balanced imo. He should take a page out of the Flash Handbook and have either his cooldown or some added attributes to where he cant have a Bat Swarm Party all day. And I know some Batman mains (not CURBOLICOUS who is extremely honest and admits this left and right) will whine and bitch about this post but im sorry you have every possible FT in the book you could need not to mention damage. Im sorry that the idea of only being able to activate bats when you have 3 bats charged ruins your sleep at night but id say join the rest of us who dont have this luxary nor your tools or damage. At least Curbo doesnt need it

Bane's Venom NEEDS TO NOT BE HIT out of parries. Why the hell would you give this character apparent super armor that defied by Batman, Joker, Frost Parry moves??? How great or "POWERFUL" is this power? That shit sucks. This character is definitely not going anywhere fast just yet.

Joker - The above leads me to a major problem. How come JOKER has this supposedly god given talent to PARRY when characters like batman and frost do it for free in terms of its just an every day special for them. "BUT PIG JOKER GETS REALLY FAST NOW WITH HIS" Yea which brings me to my next point, it last for like 4 secs which in this game's walk speed and dash properties is instant. The HaH-HaHs need to stay the whole round, till clashed or till Supered possibly. Something should be adjusted on this.

Black Adam - I honestly don't have an opinion on him yet as for his trait goes. I mean he does get a 23% throw with it and hella damage and guarenteed way to finish opponent in chip but ehh his trait im not convinced yet is broke.

Lex Power/Trait - Only because its ONLY 1 hit of armor i feel its fine, I mean shit look at Doomsday he has about 7 secs of Armor although he takes damage id trade his power/trait for anything.

Grundy - Command grab that cant be ducked and can be MB for armor

Superman - I think its good, smart and the only thing Id say is it needs more Cooldown factor time. I think Superman is an elite character though in this game and should have to Charge that bar rather than wait for it to magically refill.

Aquaman - Should have more cooldown

Catwoman - ***I know nothing about this character***

Shazam - ***Same as Catwoman***

Harley - No comment cause i think overall its just not good. My recommendations would go to deaf ears on this one.

Cyborg - Its sort of a joke, who even uses it? It would be better if it worked like Harley's life regen and could move while regen his 12% or whatever Harley gets



N/A Power/Traits:
Arrow
Lobo
WW
NW
etc

Discuss. Although I talk to all the communities favorite players,Most intellectual and strongest minds Im probably the bad guy here and wrong because I dont mind expressing my true feelings.