Character lock but no variation lock

[The Celebrity]

I was thinking about this for awhile, and I think it was something really worth exploring.

Everyone knows counter picking exists in this game, but something thats never really been explored (or at least I haven't seen it personally, if there's a thread on this already please close this down) is how different the game would be if variation lock wasn't a thing.

For those unfamiliar with character lock: (I'm sure everyone here knows what I'm talking about, but just in case)

• When a player wins a match in a set they are character and variation locked for the next match in the set. This means they have to pick the same character and variation next game, while their opponent can counterpick.

Since MKX is the first game to explore the variation system, I don't think its farfetched to maybe explore the ruling a little bit.

If after winning a match as Sun God Kotal and you were character lock... Well fuck now they're going to bring out a day 2 Grandmaster Subzero and win because its like 7-3 for Subzero... But if you're only character locked (no variation), you now have the option to swap to War God for a MUCHH better matchup after your opponent makes his selection as GM Sub.

I see this promoting people to use the variation system how I feel it should be used, and would drive people to master matchups for their characters rather than just adding the best Zoner, Pressure and Anti-zoner characters all to their arsenal.

EDIT: The variation and character select flow would either be:

1. Player wins and is now character locked
2. Loser selects his character
3. Winner picks variation for character they won with
4. Loser selects his variation

OR (the smash bros route)

1. Player wins and is now character locked
2. Loser selects character + variation
3. Winner picks variation for character they won with

The plusses I see to this are:

• Much more character loyalty (which I think is a lot more awesome to watch and play).
• More diversity (it wouldn't feel as if its just tempest lao in every game)
• Better rounded characters (Mileena, Kotal, Kano, Subzero would all really like this idea)

The negatives are:

• Quan is even more retarded than before in tournament setting
• Lao is also even more retarded than before in tournament setting

Opinions?

 

[Prinz]

If MKX would be only character locked, then the variation choice would have to be hidden, since, if the winner has to choose the variation first, there's no point in having the character lock system and not the variation lock system. But then you add a factor of randomness, which is not professional. Variations are different characters in themselves, with different moves and playstyles, so they should just be treated as such. It's not a terrible idea, it's just pointless.

 

[The Celebrity]

If MKX would be only character locked, then the variation choice would have to be hidden, since, if the winner has to choose the variation first, there's no point in having the character lock system and not the variation lock system. But then you add a factor of randomness, which is not professional. Variations are different characters in themselves, with different moves and playstyles, so they should just be treated as such. It's not a terrible idea, it's just pointless.

I forgot to mention it, but I figured it would be done this way.

1. Player wins and is now character locked
2. Loser selects his character
3. Winner picks variation for character he won with
4. Loser selects his variation

This means that the winner can react with their variation pick depending on who the opponent chose. Like back to my example.. If you're locked on Kotal after winning with Sun God and they pick Subzero, you then swap to War God because you're scared of the GM matchup. Now they can pick GM or Cryo depending here what they'd prefer.

I think it would come into play a lot more often than you'd expect, and definitely not be "pointless".

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

I forgot to mention it, but I figured it would be done this way.

1. Player wins and is now character locked
2. Loser selects his character
3. Winner picks variation for character he won with
4. Loser selects his variation

.

I forsee this system being easily forgotten, people cant even remember to desync the controllers for christ sakes do you really think that everyone will go in this order every single time there is a character change?

 

[Prinz]

I forgot to mention it, but I figured it would be done this way.

1. Player wins and is now character locked
2. Loser selects his character
3. Winner picks variation for character he won with
4. Loser selects his variation

This means that the winner can react with their variation pick depending on who the opponent chose. Like back to my example.. If you're locked on Kotal after winning with Sun God and they pick Subzero, you then swap to War God because you're scared of the GM matchup. Now they can pick GM or Cryo depending here what they'd prefer.

I think it would come into play a lot more often than you'd expect, and definitely not be "pointless".

In this case any specific variation would have to be a counterpick for 3 variations for it to work, which is not the case at all except some chars like Goro, where no matter what variation of his you pick, Summoner Quan will beat it regardless. Every variation is a complete character, they should be treated like ones.
Also no one will pick cryo over GM

 

[The PantyChrist]

This discussion was had before launch. It's both character and variation lock

 

[SEN WIIISE]

Fighters in a somewhat philosophical way, are like debates between players. Moves & choices being vocabulary.
Arguing your point correctly enough times, grants you the last word and thus, victory. We as competitors love our game and simply want to play it at its best setting. Pushing the boundaries hard af whenever we can, but still expecting fair play. In order to reach this, rules like character locking are in place as a way to keep sessions meaningful. You wouldn't wanna lose a debate because your opposition wore more fashionable clothes than you.

The reason for being character locked, i feel at least. Is to reduce the luck factor and increase the skill factor.
Without it? You could go into your match and get bodied by 'Character A'. Then pick B to counter it, only to end up facing 'Character C' which counters your counter. Or you get bodied, then say "I think I can adapt" sticking with your initial choice. Only to be met with a new challenge, because your opponent feels you're catching on. At that point, your skill becomes second to the draw/selection of characters, being that you'd have less chances to learn your opponent. This can be interesting, yes. But for it to feel fair, would require more games and inevitably more sets. Suddenly the competition not only takes longer, impacting the event itself. It now seems to cater to players with the most overall experience
and/or results are more so influenced by the character select screen.

By restricting the winner to picking the same setup, they're challenged to remain consistent or switch up their play.
So, in the event they win again? It'll only solidify their win and establish their skill level over the opponent.
Sort of like an "I told you so." (If you're looking at matches like a visual debate)
This also of course means, the minimum required amount of games, as well as equal amount of chances for each player to attempt countering or adapting.

In a game like SF3rd Strike, or MvC if you select a certain super or assist? It counts as a part of your characters moveset.
If you win with a certain moveset, the challenge is to do it again or be thwarted. Being that MKX seems like a special case?
I see where Vari-locks could be interesting. But it's really no different from assists in MvC or Supers in SF3.
Overall, it'd nullify the purpose of the already present character lock.

I hope I didn't overwhelm anyone. I just felt I needed to explain my founding ideas before just giving my opinion.

 

[Goat-City-II]

This wouldn't be a bad idea if every character had variations that were both viable and helped facilitate between the strengths and weaknesses of each other. A character like Quan Chi would get way better in tournaments because when Summoner gets counter picked with a pressure character like Tempest or Kobu, you can just switch to Warlock. I have an idea though that can't be done in this game but could potentially be done in future NRS games. What they could do is make it so after you lose a round in a match, you have the option to spend either a bar of meter or your entire stamina bar or even a reasonable chunk of health to switch variations before the next round starts.

This would be fair because if your opponent loses the next round due to a possible counter pick, they have the option to do the exact same thing with their character on the winning round. Plus it costs a valuable resource, so even if it's a counter pick, you might not decide to do it because you value that resource too much. This would help give variations a new built in utility that makes them more useful to learn for different match-ups than an entirely different character because you have a bonus option attributed to them.

However, in order for this to work they would most likely have to get rid of the variation specific visual accessories and make every variation look the same. They could instead add the accessories as unlockables that you can simply equip to your character if you like the way they look. The only way they could get away with not doing this is if they added a bunch of animations to each character when they switch between variations. Like if you switched from Piercing Mileena to Ravenous, she would just slip the mask off between rounds, or if you switched from Unbreakable Sub Zero to Cryomancer, the mask would disappear as a coating of ice covers Sub Zero's arms. I wouldn't suggest this route though because it wouldn't always make sense for the character to do that, plus it would take a lot of extra work.

 

[omooba]

• Lao is also even more retarded than before in tournament setting

Opinions?

lol what's broke about lao

 

[Blade4693]

Yeah why not, it could put an interesting twist on things IMO.

 

[Compbros]

I tried but a bunch of people said it was just stupid and wait til EVO to discuss it again. I said after EVO it'd be too late as people would be set in their ways. It all fell on deaf ears and here we are months later with it no longer being discussed.

This discussion was had before launch. It's both character and variation lock

It actually wasn't, a ton of people had a "wait til the game comes out to discuss this" including Paco and then the game came out and no one discussed it.


Edit: Meant Paulo.

 

[BoromiRofGeo]

in theory this is good.
in practice id have to choose from master of storms, mystic, dualist and others. u get my point.
it would benefit to only few select characters, who have solid three variations.
and we know that variations are total failure in mkx for most of the cast.

 

[Compbros]

Here's the original thread in case anyone is interested.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/can-we-get-a-consensus-on-character-variation-lock-rules.48559/

 

[crosshair271]

This is why I always said we should be able to switch variations in game like Deadly Alliance, Deception and Armageddon style switch. It adds so much more depth and creativity. At that point you're only locked to character and it can level out match ups. Plus something like this would refresh the game and make it interesting again.

 

[Compbros]

This is why I always said we should be able to switch variations in game like Deadly Alliance, Deception and Armageddon style switch. It adds so much more depth and creativity. At that point you're only locked to character and it can level out match ups. Plus something like this would refresh the game and make it interesting again.

This would be pretty bad in this game.

 

[omooba]

in theory this is good.
in practice id have to choose from master of storms, mystic, dualist and others. u get my point.
it would benefit to only few select characters, who have solid three variations.
and we know that variations are total failure in mkx for most of the cast.

everyone keeps saying variations are a failure but honestly how many characters are there with only one good variation

 

[The Celebrity]

in theory this is good.
in practice id have to choose from master of storms, mystic, dualist and others. u get my point.
it would benefit to only few select characters, who have solid three variations.
and we know that variations are total failure in mkx for most of the cast.

You bring up Dualist as your example, but keep in mind this would still let Liu Kang players swap between the other 2 (Flame Fist and Dragon's Fire).

To put it into perspective... Dragon's Fire is a losing matchup against Jax (people seem to think its about 4-6), but its actually a winning matchup for Flame Fist (6-4). This means that if someone is to counterpick you with Jax, you have an option to pick a more favourable matchup in the case of Flame Fist.

Even characters that only have 2 tournament viable variations can still benefit from this.

Even though I posted this thread a little while back, I definitely think its something worth exploring in tournament setting.

 

[omooba]

You bring up Dualist as your example, but keep in mind this would still let Liu Kang players swap between the other 2 (Flame Fist and Dragon's Fire).

To put it into perspective... Dragon's Fire is a losing matchup against Jax (people seem to think its about 4-6), but its actually a winning matchup for Flame Fist (6-4). This means that if someone is to counterpick you with Jax, you have an option to pick a more favourable matchup in the case of Flame Fist.

Even characters that only have 2 tournament viable variations can still benefit from this.

Even though I posted this thread a little while back, I definitely think its something worth exploring in tournament setting.

can u explain to me why the match up is winning/losing

 

[crosshair271]

This would be pretty bad in this game.

It can't be any worse than being locked into a game with an extremely unwinnable match up. Even if it was complete blind pick at least they can keep switching variations to outplay each other.

 

[The Celebrity]

can u explain to me why the match up is winning/losing

This isn't the Liu Kang forums... Go look there if your'e curious about that.

 

[omooba]

This isn't the Liu Kang forums... Go look there if your'e curious about that.

even if i found a thread with MU list they never justify it NO ONE ever does for some reason. can't u just help a brother out

 

[Goat-City-II]

I guess nobody saw the post I bumped this thread with, here's the quote.

This wouldn't be a bad idea if every character had variations that were both viable and helped facilitate between the strengths and weaknesses of each other. A character like Quan Chi would get way better in tournaments because when Summoner gets counter picked with a pressure character like Tempest or Kobu, you can just switch to Warlock. I have an idea though that can't be done in this game but could potentially be done in future NRS games. What they could do is make it so after you lose a round in a match, you have the option to spend either a bar of meter or your entire stamina bar or even a reasonable chunk of health to switch variations before the next round starts.

This would be fair because if your opponent loses the next round due to a possible counter pick, they have the option to do the exact same thing with their character on the winning round. Plus it costs a valuable resource, so even if it's a counter pick, you might not decide to do it because you value that resource too much. This would help give variations a new built in utility that makes them more useful to learn for different match-ups than an entirely different character because you have a bonus option attributed to them.

However, in order for this to work they would most likely have to get rid of the variation specific visual accessories and make every variation look the same. They could instead add the accessories as unlockables that you can simply equip to your character if you like the way they look. The only way they could get away with not doing this is if they added a bunch of animations to each character when they switch between variations. Like if you switched from Piercing Mileena to Ravenous, she would just slip the mask off between rounds, or if you switched from Unbreakable Sub Zero to Cryomancer, the mask would disappear as a coating of ice covers Sub Zero's arms. I wouldn't suggest this route though because it wouldn't always make sense for the character to do that, plus it would take a lot of extra work.

 

[B. Shazzy]

ya, i supported at least trying it too but everyone said it would be acounterpick fest yet here we are anyway

 

[SM StarGazer]

The post above the above post is a good idea.

 

[aldazo]

Supposedly the variation system would help balance the character. They said one variation will be offensive, other defensive, the third like a mid between the others, so you could have different play styles in the same char. But so far I don't see big changes between variations, I mean the prevalent tactic among all variations is being very offensive, sure there are differences but the main strategy doesn't change too much from variation to variation, imo.

I think the main argument for keeping it variation lock is that the guy that lose the match has some kind of right to counterpick the winner, and if the winner changes variation then the loser will have to face an all new strategy so the point of counterpicking is lost. But if you think about it, why should the loser have the right to counterpick to begin with? It wouldn't be better if each player have the right to adapt? shouldn't be every match like a totally new one, for both players?

Character lock would take from both sides, loser could counterpick with a new char while winner just with a variation, and knowing not all variations are viable and the main strategy between them doesn't change too much, the loser would have his advantage anyway, plus it would bring new life to the competitive scene.