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Buff wishlist

As we all know Shao needs some help in order to make him tournament viable.

The main problem here is that Shao is not menacing enough for his archetype. In a game where a 100 pound lady (Sonya while having strong mixups) can do 500 damage easy and Shao a 2 bar 370 damage clearly something's wrong. Here are some the changes I think would make him much better and balanced IMO:

-Priest Buff faster startup, less recovery and longer buff duration. At the moment it's already hard to get the buff out, much less to land the Anhiliation KB.
-Change Fwd Throw KB requirements (reversal throw punish). This KB will likely never happen in a match given not everything that you can punish is at throw range.
-F34 special cancelable.
-Change F34, 1+3 KB requirements (During debuff) and make it so that both variations can use it (on counter/punish).
-Ground Shatter restands +3 on hit
-Hammer Lounge projectile invincibility.
-Amplified Shoulder Charge(down) OH should come out on block and be safe on block. (This move is currently useless).
-Debuff/Taunt better startup recovery.

....and give his back throw a KB? Too much? C'mon his SHAO KAHN!
 
My thoughts from another thread:

What shao khan needs, is a little buff to his f21, better startup for taunts/priest and kb. That's all. B3 sucks but whatever. F34 should not be special cancellable, that would put him at Cassie/jacqui level in terms of close range strength, and he is supposed to excel at sweep/jump range.

-Amplified Shoulder Charge(down) OH should come out on block and be safe on block. (This move is currently useless).
Scorpion 2.0? No thanks. It would be super broken.
 
My thoughts from another thread:

What shao khan needs, is a little buff to his f21, better startup for taunts/priest and kb. That's all. B3 sucks but whatever. F34 should not be special cancellable, that would put him at Cassie/jacqui level in terms of close range strength, and he is supposed to excel at sweep/jump range.



Scorpion 2.0? No thanks. It would be super broken.
  1. B4 sucks? Are you kidding?
  2. F34 already has a huge gap so it will not be as broke as Jaqui please.
  3. It will not be as broken as scorpion because amplified down shoulder does not launch into full combo.
 
  1. B4 sucks? Are you kidding?
  2. F34 already has a huge gap so it will not be as broke as Jaqui please.
  3. It will not be as broken as scorpion because amplified down shoulder does not launch into full combo.
  1. I edited, meant b3.
  2. Yes, it has a gap, so? It doesn't mean your opp is going to flawless block it every time, you can even punish him for trying to. F3 is a super fast mid and is intentionally designed to be this way.
  3. I don't care it doesn't launch, as long as you have 1 bar of meter, you could safely go for random shoulder dash in neutral (which is pretty much unreactable, at least online). Land it, full combo. Get blocked, no punish. Broke as hell.
 
  1. I edited, meant b3.
  2. Yes, it has a gap, so? It doesn't mean your opp is going to flawless block it every time, you can even punish him for trying to. F3 is a super fast mid and is intentionally designed to be this way.
  3. I don't care it doesn't launch, as long as you have 1 bar of meter, you could safely go for random shoulder dash in neutral (which is pretty much unreactable, at least online). Land it, full combo. Get blocked, no punish. Broke as hell.
I see your point about the shoulder but at the moment the amplified down shoulder is literally useless. They can make it so that its not broken. Might as well remove the move from the game for it serves no purpose.

I dont agree on leaving the f34 as it is but I guess if they improve his other buttons I wouldn't mind leaving it as it is of course.

A better startup/recovery to the priest buff/taunts would be the no.1 priority to help Shao IMO as well as his KBs.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Cyrax, Kotal Kahn, NightWolf & Shang Tsung.
  1. Priest Buff faster startup, less recovery and longer buff duration. At the moment it's already hard to get the buff out, much less to land the Anhiliation KB.
  2. Change Fwd Throw KB requirements (reversal throw punish). This KB will likely never happen in a match given not everything that you can punish is at throw range.
  3. F34 special cancelable.
  4. Change F34, 1+3 KB requirements (During debuff) and make it so that both variations can use it (on counter/punish).
  5. Ground Shatter restands +3 on hit
  6. Hammer Lounge projectile invincibility.
  7. Amplified Shoulder Charge(down) OH should come out on block and be safe on block. (This move is currently useless).
  8. Debuff/Taunt better startup recovery.
1, 2, 4 and 8 are fine and he should get them but the others are not necessary and could put him in S Tier easily.
7 he doesn't need, there are staggers and guess game built into many characters and that's how you make it safe.

His F12 should be better imo but his F34 is already very strong with its stagger and mix off a 10f mid.
Its really just his KB's and other buttons being way to slow or wiffing that I think puts him lower in tiers.

I completely understand wanting a shit ton of changes being a Kotal main.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
You have no idea what you are asking for or the ramifications of all of these buffs at a high level. These changes would make him broken beyond belief and shouldnt even be humored.

The actual changes he needs are:

  • S2 hit mid on crouch block
  • D1 jail into S1 on hit
  • Better buff/taunt recovery
  • B3 hitbox more consistent on jumpers
  • Restand plus 2-3 on hit

That is it.

  • Forward throw KB is already extremely strong, start labbing match ups to find the best places to use this. Here's a hint lots of moves lose their pushback on flawless block and leave them in range for the throw KB to be a reversal punish
  • F34 does not need to be special cancellable, the string is strong enough as is as a 10 frame safe mid and F3 can be confirmed into shoulder on its own, start practicing and start staggering F3 on block. Doing F3 as a meaty also takes away the gap.
  • F34 KB needs to stay as is fixing the taunts to be reasonable will solve that viability.
  • if you honestly need hammer lunge to be a safe flying version of geras sand trap that can anti air into plus 50 knockdown to get in i dont know what to tell you. You can already land 1 spear to get in and hammer lunge can jump projectiles already if spaced right, it cant be 100% free projectile immunity. Absolutely absurd.
  • No shoulder should never be able to be amplified on block, absolutely rediculous request. It is already an advancing launcher that can reversal punish many moves. Again, you cant just make everything he does free and have zero risk. If they really want to make the the 2nd mb useful they could turn it into a long splat knockdown for a priest set up or something.
Also note that you did not factor in current top tiers getting toned down into your requests at all.
 
He has KB using throw as a punish? Isn’t that really good? Why would you wanna change that?
Not exactly as punish, you need to use use it as reversal punish (like perfect frame input). Doable, but no as easy as it looks like. Imo it's fine now, changing it for normal punish would be very strong.
 

SOULWARRIOR 71K

XBL: SOULWARRIOR 71K PSN: SOULWARRIOR71K
I find that the best use of his forward throw kb is to flawless block wakeups and then punish accordingly. Only works on wakeups that are -10 or more on block though.
 

colby4898

Special Forces Sonya Up-player
Not exactly as punish, you need to use use it as reversal punish (like perfect frame input). Doable, but no as easy as it looks like. Imo it's fine now, changing it for normal punish would be very strong.
That sounds like a really good kB to me. Reversal throw punish sounds like an easy 32%
 
You have no idea what you are asking for or the ramifications of all of these buffs at a high level. These changes would make him broken beyond belief and shouldnt even be humored.

The actual changes he needs are:

  • S2 hit mid on crouch block
  • D1 jail into S1 on hit
  • Better buff/taunt recovery
  • B3 hitbox more consistent on jumpers
  • Restand plus 2-3 on hit
That is it.

  • Forward throw KB is already extremely strong, start labbing match ups to find the best places to use this. Here's a hint lots of moves lose their pushback on flawless block and leave them in range for the throw KB to be a reversal punish
  • F34 does not need to be special cancellable, the string is strong enough as is as a 10 frame safe mid and F3 can be confirmed into shoulder on its own, start practicing and start staggering F3 on block. Doing F3 as a meaty also takes away the gap.
  • F34 KB needs to stay as is fixing the taunts to be reasonable will solve that viability.
  • if you honestly need hammer lunge to be a safe flying version of geras sand trap that can anti air into plus 50 knockdown to get in i dont know what to tell you. You can already land 1 spear to get in and hammer lunge can jump projectiles already if spaced right, it cant be 100% free projectile immunity. Absolutely absurd.
  • No shoulder should never be able to be amplified on block, absolutely rediculous request. It is already an advancing launcher that can reversal punish many moves. Again, you cant just make everything he does free and have zero risk. If they really want to make the the 2nd mb useful they could turn it into a long splat knockdown for a priest set up or something.
Also note that you did not factor in current top tiers getting toned down into your requests at all.
His FWD throw KB won't ever happen in many matchups. Changing the requirements the standard fail tech and taking away the launching properties as a tradeoff will make Shao's pressure actually menacing.

I would say that 90% of the time hammer launge will be hit by projectiles. Its reactable and gimmicky as it is plus spear is the worst projectile in the game. Either improve the hurtbox of shao during the launge or give some frames of armor/projectile inv during the arc.

Risen Emperor only has 4 KBs and good luck getting any in a real match aside from D2 KB.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
His FWD throw KB won't ever happen in many matchups. Changing the requirements the standard fail tech and taking away the launching properties as a tradeoff will make Shao's pressure actually menacing.

I would say that 90% of the time hammer launge will be hit by projectiles. Its reactable and gimmicky as it is plus spear is the worst projectile in the game. Either improve the hurtbox of shao during the launge or give some frames of armor/projectile inv during the arc.

Risen Emperor only has 4 KBs and good luck getting any in a real match aside from D2 KB.
Have you labbed those mus where you say throw KB is not viable or are you assuming? I was in the process of making a list of the most viable scenarios for each character so if there are ones you are struggling to hit it against I will be sure to tag you in the thread i eventually make. For instance against geras if he wakes up with either u2 or u3 both can be punished with reversal throw into a 50% combo he cannot break out of due to just waking up. Extremely viable and good in that match up.

The hammer lunge being reactable doesnt make sense as its not something you would use in a scenario they could block anyway it would punish the projectiles in their recovery, I do this consistantly in many match ups.

Annihilation KB is still doable as of now in certain match ups and spear KB easier in other match ups too. Spear is not at all the worst projectile in the game with the amount of hitstun it has. Try using whiffed jabs as a fake spear too, really good for setting people up for counter hit spears or trades in our favor.
 
Honestly with his dark priest move is should be buffed to be like ferra torrs pain and gain special where you can cancel out of it to make it slightly plus depending on the normals canceled into. To make that balanced it should take a bar of defensive meter to do adding substantial risk if things dont go your way.

Otherwise, f3 4 should be special cancelable or at least make a new string for b2 into another mid.

Spear should either have a damage increase, widen the hitbox or slightly faster recovery. I've traded spear against the startup of skarlet slow blood ball even though I had the read and the spear hit, I still traded with a projectile that took 2 seconds to reach me.

Honestly I feel his tourney loadouts are his best, the other moves are just not worth it. Reverse screen hammer is good in the corner to end the combo for a frametrap but is boo boo otherwise.

1,2, 3+4 is really good especially if you can combo into it for kb but that is inconsistent to land. The third hit should have its hurtbox widened to end combos with.

Finally, a possibly outlandish buff would be to leave all his strings the same but make s1 a mid. That would automatically but all his options across the board. It most likely would result in him being busted close up so it will probably never happen.
 

BuffRaiden

GIMMEMAMONEYYYYY
Ah B4 might be the best sweep in the game.

People are now figuring out how to abuse with is character and buffing him too much will cause real problems.

B4 - d1 - annihilation get even the best players.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Ah B4 might be the best sweep in the game.

People are now figuring out how to abuse with is character and buffing him too much will cause real problems.

B4 - d1 - annihilation get even the best players.
D1 annihilation is as fake as it gets what are you talking about. It doesnt combo and it leaves you -15 point blank
 

BuffRaiden

GIMMEMAMONEYYYYY
D1 annihilation is as fake as it gets what are you talking about. It doesnt combo and it leaves you -15 point blank
He has the option of the overhead as well though. He has so many fuck neutral tools the downplay is so real. Great counter poke game.

You’re right though annihilation is unsafe... as it should be.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
He has the option of the overhead as well though. He has so many fuck neutral tools the downplay is so real. Great counter poke game.

You’re right though annihilation is unsafe... as it should be.
I dont even know what you are trying to say, I never mentioned any overhead, just that d1 annihilation is fake and unsafe since you brought that up
 
I dont even know what you are trying to say, I never mentioned any overhead, just that d1 annihilation is fake and unsafe since you brought that up
Maybe he means doing d1 into hammer lounge which sometimes punishes the opponent counter poking...but it is inconsistent.
 

XxTheGoblinX

Supreme
His FWD throw KB won't ever happen in many matchups. Changing the requirements the standard fail tech and taking away the launching properties as a tradeoff will make Shao's pressure actually menacing.

I would say that 90% of the time hammer launge will be hit by projectiles. Its reactable and gimmicky as it is plus spear is the worst projectile in the game. Either improve the hurtbox of shao during the launge or give some frames of armor/projectile inv during the arc.

Risen Emperor only has 4 KBs and good luck getting any in a real match aside from D2 KB.
Hammer Lunge is amazing. The only match ups it struggles in are people with high projectiles like Kitanas Fan, Sonyas ring and Kabals projectile.

Against the majority of the cast its pretty much free to get in which is great. So 90% is false.

The spear is not the worst projectile in the game you just dont understand its purpose, it is not meant to zone people out.

Its used as a tool to get in on zoners, the stun is ridiculous all you have to do is spear, Fwd Dash Fwd Dash and ur right in there face.

But I do like his Fwd throw krushing blow, I say keep the Fwd throw KB and also add a fail tech back throw KB.

Finally just fix the dark priest and taunt start ups and the character is basically perfect. Nothing else needed
 
Hammer Lunge is amazing. The only match ups it struggles in are people with high projectiles like Kitanas Fan, Sonyas ring and Kabals projectile.

Against the majority of the cast its pretty much free to get in which is great. So 90% is false.

The spear is not the worst projectile in the game you just dont understand its purpose, it is not meant to zone people out.

Its used as a tool to get in on zoners, the stun is ridiculous all you have to do is spear, Fwd Dash Fwd Dash and ur right in there face.

But I do like his Fwd throw krushing blow, I say keep the Fwd throw KB and also add a fail tech back throw KB.

Finally just fix the dark priest and taunt start ups and the character is basically perfect. Nothing else needed
LOL try doing the Lunge against Raiden, Kabal, Liu, Kitana, Sonya, Frost, Jade, Scorp, Erron, to name a few. Its impossible. I can do it consistently against Sub thin ice only when I'm full screen. C'mon guys this move could use an improvement to help him around the zoning.
 
LOL try doing the Lunge against Raiden, Kabal, Liu, Kitana, Sonya, Frost, Jade, Scorp, Erron, to name a few. Its impossible. I can do it consistently against Sub thin ice only when I'm full screen. C'mon guys this move could use an improvement to help him around the zoning.
Some of those are possible depending on the reactiontiming. Like with Jade if you delay it slightly your jump apex will go over her blades. I think it will be tricky to buff the move because it will absolutely cripple zoners if not done right.

I often make the opponent guess whether I will spear, jab or hammer. If I smell hesitation then I hammer.