Tech Batter-up! -- Harley mixups for 1.03

[Ronald_A_Knox]

As many of you are aware, Harley no longer has any frametraps. 2d3 string is dead, so is any hope of ever landing f2 on somebody who played Harley more than once and is actually a good player. But! No giving up yet. In fact, just right now, i found some very dirty things with f3 that might interest you or even end up as her real mixups.

Ok, here's the deal.

f3 is godlike. Yes, i said it, a 39 frame normal is godlike. Hear me out.

When you hold 3, it delays. When it delays, you can dash cancel it. At maximum of f3's range dashing once makes you up close. From this you get these options:

• Option 1: The opp was standing blocking, waiting for your hammer to land. You get in, do a low(b22), COMBO!
• Option 2: He was blocking low, reacting to dash coming. Do a throw! Throw will end at the exact range of hammer and you can play that roulette again.
• Option 3: The opp was pressing a button, likely to punish the dash or throw escape. For that you don't dash cancel and just do MB F3 And again, COMBO.
• Option 4: The opp backdashes. Well, Grundy has to deal with that too and he is fine. You can shoot them on their way back for some damage and chase them into the corner.
• Option 5: The opp forward dashes with intention to make f3 whiff over themselves and punish it. What do you do? B3! What? MB B3 and MB F3 look really similar, and by the time the opp realises it isn't F3, he'll be flying away baseball-style. And while he is busy trying to respect and identify if it's B3 or F3, he is not forward dashing, allowing you to go for any of the prior 4 options.
• Option 6: Your opp is punishing the dash/f3 with multi-hit moves. You've trained them to do that on reaction. Very good, don't use F3 for a while. He will be expecting F3 and block for it, so you approach and do b22/throw. By the time he tries to anticipate that one, go back to F3.

And that is a whopping 6 options so far.

Using it requies proper spacing with your F3, and knowing what range it is at, because too close it whiffs. But you can also use all this on wake-up.

After an 112 combo ender your opponent is in hard knockdown. Other enders mostly go in similar range, i say 112 because that is the one i use. Your options from that are as follows:

• Low: bf3, TS1, you get the drill.
• Jump-in: forward dash, ji2, etc.
• Alt low, fake jump-in: forward dash, TS1, etc
• Zoning: bf2 cupcake. Get back and start zoning while he is hit/blocking.
• Vs wake-up attack: MB B3 or MB F3 with a delay to let their invincible frames die out.
• This tech: forward dash, F3, read above.

As you can see, you can squeeze this tech into your oki game as well, allowing for yet another six options, five of them leading into combo, and the last one leading to six more options.

Turns out, Harley is a very dirty girl with very dirty tech. Please post your questions, opinions, and additions. We may get out of this just yet.

 

[nightE89]

so wait will u MB her F3 for start then for armor then?

 

[Ronald_A_Knox]

so wait will u MB her F3 for start then for armor then?

Yes, some of the options require F3 to be meter burned. But you CAN use a non-MB one for even more confusion, after all, you generally start it fairly far from the opp with little chance of reaction-punish.

 

[nightE89]

ok sweet I'll def give this a try tonight then. Time to hit the lab

 

[LKG]

I really want to be optimistic about this, but it seems like this might end up being MU specific and not universal. Probably good for mind-tricks or whatever, but outside of that... I'll try it out anyway.

 

[Ronald_A_Knox]

I really want to be optimistic about this, but it seems like this might end up being MU specific and not universal. Probably good for mind-tricks or whatever, but outside of that... I'll try it out anyway.

Mixups of Harley are in general MU-specific. Some characters you have to zone, some characters you have to rush. This for the most part eats meter, so using it against those you need to zone out is not recommended, in those matchups meter is more useful to supplement zoning in MB specials or AA MB B3.

 

[cpmd4]

I'm not so sure this would work. It's as much a guessing game for you as for your opponent, and considering that some of these cases requires you to know what your opponent is going to do beforehand (do I b3 or f3 this time??), I don't think this is really advantageous. They can start messing with you using your own strategy if they realise they can.

And even if they start to stand-block it, surely dash-cancelling and hitting them low takes long enough to block low on reaction?

I would like to see some of this in action against a good opponent though. Maybe I'm just skeptical.

 

[KamkaziChicila]

Its an ok tool, but for Mix-ups it seems very lackluster. Its good to catch your opponent off guard once or twice, but not that great for throw options.

 

[Laos_boy]

These are good. But it is mu specific.
But I'll stick with my f13/TS mix ups... But I'll use this too. There more tech the better

 

[Ronald_A_Knox]

I'm not so sure this would work. It's as much a guessing game for you as for your opponent, and considering that some of these cases requires you to know what your opponent is going to do beforehand (do I b3 or f3 this time??), I don't think this is really advantageous. They can start messing with you using your own strategy if they realise they can.

And even if they start to stand-block it, surely dash-cancelling and hitting them low takes long enough to block low on reaction?

I would like to see some of this in action against a good opponent though. Maybe I'm just skeptical.

I know that using a 39 frame normal for all this already sounds like a big stretch, but i don't see what's the problem with "guessing". Mixups are guessing, mixups have always been guessing. 50/50 is guessing, and if you guess wrong, usually the results aren't good for you. But this is MORE than 50/50. This is 5 options already and i'm sure there is more.

Option 2 deals with blocking low. b22 is fast, with a throw it's a genuine 50/50. only the throw obviously does less but it resets exactly where the whole setup started, allowing you to either keep throwing him if he keeps turtling, or go for something else for damage.

I would video it, but i have no recording stuff.

 

[xWEBSx]

This is well thought out, and very viable due to dashes not being able to be canceled by moves and dash front and back have to complete.

Some keys to these options:

Learning your F3 spacing.. A step or two too close sends Harley sailing over the opponent and makes her punishable. The opponent is going to do 1 of two things while seeing Harley charge her F3.. "Here comes a high, I need to brace/guard, then counter" or "here comes a high.. New to get in and smash her before he can get it off". Of course.. The more meter Harley has, the more dangerous this option becomes, all it takes is a tap of a button and your F3 now becomes MB F3 and you have a hit if armor. Ronald has really come up with something here and I highly suggest we as a team look into her dash options out of F3, B3, charged Pop pop.. I would not be so quick to discard this style ad these options...
F3/B3 are outstanding for a reason, and I am willing to bet it is not to just MB the move and get a bounce to punish with j2,2, d2,1,1,3..

The great thing is, this is indeed a mixup option for her.. With Ronald giving FIVE options based on opponent reactions.. She can still be played as an annoyance, still has her zoning, can be damaging up close if a hit is landed, but we have to look outside the box and view Harley as a punish character (up close) with decent zoning tools to help keep opponents at mid range and advancing on her, with this potentially new and useful F3/B3 tech.
We must also come to the realization that she is not a Rushdown character.. Ala Catwoman and Doomsday.

Good stuff Ronald, I look forward to practicing with this andfurthering the exploration.

 

[Ronald_A_Knox]

This is well thought out, and very viable due to dashes not being able to be canceled by moves and dash front and back have to complete.

Some keys to these options:

Learning your F3 spacing.. A step or two too close sends Harley sailing over the opponent and makes her punishable. The opponent is going to do 1 of two things while seeing Harley charge her F3.. "Here comes a high, I need to brace/guard, then counter" or "here comes a high.. New to get in and smash her before he can get it off". Of course.. The more meter Harley has, the more dangerous this option becomes, all it takes is a tap of a button and your F3 now becomes MB F3 and you have a hit if armor. Ronald has really come up with something here and I highly suggest we as a team look into her dash options out of F3, B3, charged Pop pop.. I would not be so quick to discard this style ad these options...
F3/B3 are outstanding for a reason, and I am willing to bet it is not to just MB the move and get a bounce to punish with j2,2, d2,1,1,3..

The great thing is, this is indeed a mixup option for her.. With Ronald giving FIVE options based on opponent reactions.. She can still be played as an annoyance, still has her zoning, can be damaging up close if a hit is landed, but we have to look outside the box and view Harley as a punish character (up close) with decent zoning tools to help keep opponents at mid range and advancing on her, with this potentially new and useful F3/B3 tech.
We must also come to the realization that she is not a Rushdown character.. Ala Catwoman and Doomsday.

Good stuff Ronald, I look forward to practicing with this andfurthering the exploration.

Learning F3 spacing is actually fairly easy(easier than some other things), due to luxury of beginning positions being exactly at F3 length.

People need to realise that Harley, hell, the whole game is MU-specific. Harley has two distinct matchup types: those she has to rush and those she has to zone. These mixups and options are only for those she has to RUSH. If one is complaining that they don't work against Doomsday i have to ask... dafuq is one doing near Doomsday anyway and why haven't one gotten out of there yet?

For those she has to ZONE, the meter is better spent elsewhere, well, at zoning. MP Pop up, MB cupcakes, MB B3, all this good stuff. Harley's meter managment should supplement her strategy, and if it is matchup-specific - well, so is her bf3 dodge but we don't immediately crumble down and claim Doomsday just wins.

 

[xWEBSx]

Learning F3 spacing is actually fairly easy(easier than some other things), due to luxury of beginning positions being exactly at F3 length.

People need to realise that Harley, hell, the whole game is MU-specific. Harley has two distinct matchup types: those she has to rush and those she has to zone. These mixups and options are only for those she has to RUSH. If one is complaining that they don't work against Doomsday i have to ask... dafuq is one doing near Doomsday anyway and why haven't one gotten out of there yet?

For those she has to ZONE, the meter is better spent elsewhere, well, at zoning. MP Pop up, MB cupcakes, MB B3, all this good stuff. Harley's meter managment should supplement her strategy, and if it is matchup-specific - well, so is her bf3 dodge but we don't immediately crumble down and claim Doomsday just wins.

Correct, which is also part of the allure of the character in my eyes.. There is no cookie cutter mold saying play Harley like this = win. I am happy she is not top tier, I am kind of happy she is not tapped out tech wise. I am honored to be on the forefront of her discovery. Onward and upward gents.. Lets get Harley some due respect.

 

[Brahma]

I use f3 a lot as oki since I end most of my combos with 112. Since they can't tech after 112, slight charge f3 is useful. If timed right, they can't backdash, and can only block, get hit, or wakeup. If you know they will use a wakeup that will hit you out of f3, you can delay the f3 and release after they whiff their wakeup, or MB it for those who can reach Harley with their wakes.

A lot of the setups posted above only work with specific spacing. Harley's dash does not have the greatest range nor is it extremely fast, so you have to use f3 fairly close to be able to utilize these options. Also, to get the max range out of the dash to get some of the close range options like throw, you need to let the dash animation complete, instead of canceling the end of it with a move, which is extra time for the opponent to react. A lot of these dash followups can be stuffed on reaction by the opponent throwing something out when they see the dash.

The fastest option which noone has mentioned yet is d1, which can link into TS and a combo, but again, it's rather short ranged. IMO, I think dash into b2 is best, as it is the best combination of speed and range, most other options I find either get beat out or are too short ranged to connect.

Also important to note is that any quick 2 hit move like Aqua scoop, Deathstroke guns, etc. will beat both the f dash options and the MB armor. All characters can wait for the f3 release and b3 MB through it too.

 

[xWEBSx]

I use f3 a lot as oki since I end most of my combos with 112. Since they can't tech after 112, slight charge f3 is useful. If timed right, they can't backdash, and can only block, get hit, or wakeup. If you know they will use a wakeup that will hit you out of f3, you can delay the f3 and release after they whiff their wakeup, or MB it for those who can reach Harley with their wakes.

A lot of the setups posted above only work with specific spacing. Harley's dash does not have the greatest range nor is it extremely fast, so you have to use f3 fairly close to be able to utilize these options. Also, to get the max range out of the dash to get some of the close range options like throw, you need to let the dash animation complete, instead of canceling the end of it with a move, which is extra time for the opponent to react. A lot of these dash followups can be stuffed on reaction by the opponent throwing something out when they see the dash.

The fastest option which noone has mentioned yet is d1, which can link into TS and a combo, but again, it's rather short ranged. IMO, I think dash into b2 is best, as it is the best combination of speed and range, most other options I find either get beat out or are too short ranged to connect.

Also important to note is that any quick 2 hit move like Aqua scoop, Deathstroke guns, etc. will beat both the f dash options and the MB armor. All characters can wait for the f3 release and b3 MB through it too.

Good input .. Will take into consideration.
I too love the D1, but man... SHORT reach..have been looking for a better use of B2,1 (cancel) will follow up with that dash advice- I agree
Good stuff

 

[KamkaziChicila]

Set-Ups / Mix-Ups after her f3. Use Annotations while watching

 

[xWEBSx]

Set-Ups / Mix-Ups after her f3. Use Annotations while watching

2:30- the super from B2,2- STYLING!!!!!

Awesome stuff man.. Really liked the dash under wit SS, right to cross up or JI if rolled.

 

[Deleted member 9158]

Why was Harley nerfed?

 

[xWEBSx]

Why was Harley nerfed?

No one knows for sure.. Why the powers to be deem mid-tier characters Nerfable is beyond us brother..

 

[Deleted member 9158]

No one knows for sure.. Why the powers to be deem mid-tier characters Nerfable is beyond us brother..

If anything she needed a few buffs, not nerfs.

She suffers against characters like Supes or Black Adam, and anyone who can fly like Hawkgirl. The logic behind nerfing her is something I'll never understand.

 

[Deleted member 9158]

Also, a little something I've been playing with :

TS 2, J2 TS 1/3. The TS 2 creates an untechable knockdown that allows you to get a vertical J2 for mix ups. You can follow the J2 with TS 3 or 1, or hell even 2 again if they don't block it. Anyone care to comment on it? I posted it a while ago and got no feedback.

 

[xWEBSx]

Also, a little something I've been playing with :

TS 2, J2 TS 1/3. The TS 2 creates an untechable knockdown that allows you to get a vertical J2 for mix ups. You can follow the J2 with TS 3 or 1, or hell even 2 again if they don't block it. Anyone care to comment on it? I posted it a while ago and got no feedback.

This is basically a ghetto version of what was nerfed with her 2,D3.. I use it and it is solid, however of read, you are getting punished and She really has no way to escape (so your offensive pressure could turn into OH shit defense REAL quick) don't abuse it.. Don't make it your "go to" but it has its uses.

 

[Brahma]

Ending combos in 112 SS gives you pretty much the same scenario as ending in db32. From here a fast nj3~air db1 nets you 15%. You can also NJ and land a meaty j2 that catches shorter backdashes. b2_f2 and throw beat out normals.

If you know they are going to wakeup attack, depending on the character you can jump back and catch their wakeup in recovery with jb2, or jump forward to cause them to whiff and punish with b22 (good for short range wakes like Grundy trait grab MB). Or, you can MB b3 it, or simply block if they have a punishable wakeup.


Ending in 112 db2 charge gives you a similar scenario to the OP f3 setup, except for ranged options instead of closeup. If you release immediately, they have to block or wakeup attack. Any other option gets hit by db2. If they wakeup attack through you may be able to MB db2 and punish them (needs more testing). Once you condition them to stand and block you can play with db2 charge timing or MB and come in with a mixup (testing). If they get hit by db2 MB you get free SS~TS into combo.

 

[xWEBSx]

Ending combos in 112 SS gives you pretty much the same scenario as ending in db32. From here a fast nj3~air db1 nets you 15%. You can also NJ and land a meaty j2 that catches shorter backdashes. b2_f2 and throw beat out normals.

If you know they are going to wakeup attack, depending on the character you can jump back and catch their wakeup in recovery with jb2, or jump forward to cause them to whiff and punish with b22 (good for short range wakes like Grundy trait grab MB). Or, you can MB b3 it, or simply block if they have a punishable wakeup.

Good shit Brahma..
Do not mean to de-rail the topic, want to pick your brain..
I fear the SS on downed opponent to F2, all my experience I am eating a wake up or low jab.. I see other Harley's pull it off.. Hell, I eat it time to time on a good Harley and I KNOW IT'S COMING! advice?

 

[Brahma]

Only use SS~f2 if you know they aren't going to wakeup attack or backdash. Other than that it's pretty free, it beats anything 6f or slower (without armor of course) and they still get hit if they jump out. If they BD then they get hit by the 2nd hit of f23.

EDIT: Tested some and if you cancel 112 ender into SS then f23 on the 1st frame then it seems you can't backdash the f2, at least vs another Harley. Needs further testing.