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Batman's Trait Vortex

SonicNinja3532

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
So after labbing the shit out of this and discussing it with various people I've decided to make a video showing batman's "new" vortex that he can use following the j2 nerf that is actually arguably better than his old one.




Using the combo I used started the video with, you can essentially kill with two guesses midscreen as long as you have a bat loaded before the first combo. Even if you can't get the second bat loaded, you're still guaranteed to take 70% if you guess right the first time.

The best part of this is that the mix is completely unescapable, you can not super or backdash out, so you have to guess. You can also choose which side to hit on usually, by slightly delaying the j2, but sometimes I didn't even know what side it was gonna hit on. This is criminally underused, and besides foxy, I haven't seen anyone use it. Idk who found the tech but credit goes to them.

@Scott The Scot

@Rude

@ForeverKing

@ any other batmans
 
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H

Hor_PeT

Kombatant
Great work!
I saw Forever King doing similar to that against HoneyBee first (at least when I saw at the first time watching King - as a new player and I have started watching archives recently):
Check 1:07 for King's vortex

But I like your version, too it seem a bit more damage and clean and simple as it is.
Maybe the advantage of King's S1xx4 is that everything happens a bit faster and with more flow which might result less preparation time to the opponent to guess and have the feeling for constant combo/pressure. 22xx4 seems like Scorpion restand in MKX which was "perfect" vortex situation of course but everybody just was waiting for that moment and focus to the teleport like hell. :D - I do not know if it does even matter on different higher levels - a good player is prepared for anything.

Probably it is good to know and use both of them - more variation means more confusion and batman needs it!

(However to be honest I like keeping my trait for other purposes as well - so in case of vortex ender we can choose between the more damage trait vortex or keep the bat and do a step back vortex and use up the bat on block pressure - on hit we can repeat and with more bat we can use the trait vortex instead of the step back vortex, etc. :) )
 
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SonicNinja3532

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
Hor_PeT said:
Great work!
I saw Forever King doing similar to that against HoneyBee first (at least when I saw at the first time watching King - as a new player and I have started watching archives recently):
Check 1:07 for King's vortex

But I like your version, too it seem a bit more damage and clean and simple as it is.
Maybe the advantage of King's S1xx4 is that everything happens a bit faster and with more flow which might result less preparation time to the opponent to guess and have the feeling for constant combo/pressure. 22xx4 seems like Scorpion restand in MKX which was "perfect" vortex situation of course but everybody just was waiting for that moment and focus to the teleport like hell. :D - I do not know if it does even matter on different higher levels - a good player is prepared for anything.

Probably it is good to know and use both of them - more variation means more confusion and batman needs it!

(However to be honest I like keeping my trait for other purposes as well - so in case of vortex ender we can choose between the more damage trait vortex or keep the bat and do a step back vortex and use up the bat on block pressure - on hit we can repeat and with more bat we can use the trait vortex instead of the step back vortex, etc. :) )
Click to expand...
The reason this is better than the step back vortex is because its both more ambiguous and inescapable. The problem with the step back one is that it can be dashed out of which a lot of high level players who have done their homework will do. Obviously it wont happen everytime but imo its just not as viable.
 
H

Hor_PeT

Kombatant
Yes that's true with step back ji2 the opponnent can guess for an escape not for a block. I rarely see it in high level matches either.

I mostly see restand into up batarang ending (+9) and a little bit of trait vortex. Trait is not often available in an intensive match (trait used to start offense and not available a new one).
Quality option that's for sure - but maybe ji2 can be defended better too after patch.
 
ShaolinGunFu

ShaolinGunFu

Warrior
Ive been doing b2 4 ji2, seems like the most damage but I cant conclude its inescapable like the others. wish s3 4 worked
 
H

Hor_PeT

Kombatant
Invincible Salads said:
I can only hope they don't something stupid like make bats have next to no hit stun. Would make em pretty shitty
Click to expand...
No block stun and no hit stun either?:) That would make no sense. Of course they can kill trait vortex too or nerf batman trait more. But why would they do it?
Trait availability is toned done by 25% already (which affects all the benefits directly). Besides hit block escape/clash removes it so not a free spamming tool.
If the efficiency nerfed more the viability would be questionable.

I think trait vortex must not be an issue as J2 is toned down too. Mostly you just continue pressure after that against a good opponnent.

But we will see if many complaints arrive for trait vortex. :)
 
The_Tile

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
Invincible Salads said:
I can only hope they don't something stupid like make bats have next to no hit stun. Would make em pretty shitty
Click to expand...
Just ask them very politely to not hold
Hor_PeT said:
No block stun and no hit stun either?:) That would make no sense. Of course they can kill trait vortex too or nerf batman trait more. But why would they do it?
Trait availability is toned done by 25% already (which affects all the benefits directly). Besides hit block escape/clash removes it so not a free spamming tool.
If the efficiency nerfed more the viability would be questionable.

I think trait vortex must not be an issue as J2 is toned down too. Mostly you just continue pressure after that against a good opponnent.

But we will see if many complaints arrive for trait vortex. :)
Click to expand...
People are currently up in arms about FS's plus on block trait vortex and this is actually really similar. It'd be silly to at least not question removing the vortex, Batmans still perfectly viable anyway and probably would be even without this.
 
Invincible Salads

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
The_Tile said:
Just ask them very politely to not hold

People are currently up in arms about FS's plus on block trait vortex and this is actually really similar. It'd be silly to at least not question removing the vortex, Batmans still perfectly viable anyway and probably would be even without this.
Click to expand...
i'm not worried too much about losing the vortex, im worried about the byproduct of that. if they end up reducing the amount of hit stun the bats do, just to stop a vortex, just how effective will they then be outside the vortex?

the only way i can see this working is if they do some fancy programming, making the hitstun of bats change based on wheather they are starting a combo, or being used in the middle of one. As in if they hit in the neutral they'll still do what they do now, but if u let him hit mid combo they wouldnt have the same advantage. thats the ONLY way they could remove this without fking killing his trait and what its supposed to do. Otherwise if they can't do that, then they need to just leave it be.

even if it does stay, it does require 2 resources, a bar and trait, so its not too bad.
 
The_Tile

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
Invincible Salads said:
i'm not worried too much about losing the vortex, im worried about the byproduct of that. if they end up reducing the amount of hit stun the bats do, just to stop a vortex, just how effective will they then be outside the vortex?

the only way i can see this working is if they do some fancy programming, making the hitstun of bats change based on wheather they are starting a combo, or being used in the middle of one. As in if they hit in the neutral they'll still do what they do now, but if u let him hit mid combo they wouldnt have the same advantage. thats the ONLY way they could remove this without fking killing his trait and what its supposed to do. Otherwise if they can't do that, then they need to just leave it be.

even if it does stay, it does require 2 resources, a bar and trait, so its not too bad.
Click to expand...
I'm sure there's some other way to reasonably adjust it, like further changing J2 so it can't cross up at all, or making bats not link when used after a MbGrapple. Just suggestions, probably not good ones but it's a discussion to be had nonetheless.

And Firestorm's vortex requires trait, which he gets access to less than Batman, and a bar to launch in the first place. Is that not that bad too?
 
SonicNinja3532

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
Imo the best way to fix it would be to allow trait bats to combo like they would normally when done off of a string. It removes this vortex and allows them to function normally without having to nerf his j2 even more or even worse, nerf trait hitstun. If they do go with this though then they should scale the followups from trait when used in this manner(considering that trait triggers auto block when used from a string at the moment which is the issue, I imagine they could also code it to do this).
 
Invincible Salads

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
The_Tile said:
I'm sure there's some other way to reasonably adjust it, like further changing J2 so it can't cross up at all, or making bats not link when used after a MbGrapple. Just suggestions, probably not good ones but it's a discussion to be had nonetheless.

And Firestorm's vortex requires trait, which he gets access to less than Batman, and a bar to launch in the first place. Is that not that bad too?
Click to expand...
i don't really have a problem with the firestorm vortex either tbh. and no, making ji2 not crossup at all would be ass.
 
H

Hor_PeT

Kombatant
Hm we found a tech and start discussing how to shut it down properly because we see it op and afraid of more nerf on other areas.
That sounds desperate but I can imagine how day 1 Batmans can feel now after the nerfs.
I have joined recently and just see a solid viable character (even without trait vortex) to play with I am positive right now. ;)

I think the deciding factor will be the threat of J2. If it is still too op to be available after a vortex situation it will be fixed somehow.
I cant believe they would kill the character with a silly fix (e.g. no.hitstun, no j2, etc). I hope the best.
I am curious how many players will how often use it and how annoying will be for the opponents to even care about.

Just watched recent Nubcakes matches vs starfires. No free trait/meter for fancy vortex lol. There are better places to spend the resources on during an intensive match.
 
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Hor_PeT

Kombatant
Yesterday I watched a match it was maybe Forever King but King correct me if I am wrong. :D
I just realized today that I may see the following trait vortex: after restand simply called the bat and released then jumped for J2.

I went to the lab and checked and worked (window is not too long though). So we can do trait vortex if we do not call a bat during the combo (e.g. still recharging or not possible).

EDIT: Oh I was wrong it was not a simple trait call&release but call bat into J2 then 1xx4 release. I have just seen it again during the King vs Emperor clash. Hm in the lab I could not connect it at first it might be thight. :)

I was sceptical about the non-escapable trait vortex and labbed it. Well according to the lab results the timing to make the J2 (even normal or cross) non-esapable for DASH is quite thight. If I do the cross jump2 "too slow" forward dash is available. And some cases I could backdash a cross jump in front of Batman (I dashed the cross jump but batman arrived behind me lol).
But probably trait makes that dash window shorter than step back j2. So I still believe in you just "not as easy to execute as it sounds to make it perfect". :)
 
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