Balancing and Improving MKII

[Konqrr]

I think that MKII needs a MAJOR overhaul. The game is fun and very nostalgic, but it is so limited and there are so many problems with it.

The question is this:
What would you do to balance and improve the game.

What would you change?
What on my list do you like? dislike?

How would you add Smoke/Jade/Noob to the game? Hopefully not Scorpion clones!
What about MK1 Kano and MK1 Sonya, how would they fit in?

Most of all, be serious when you post ^_^

I've come up with several things over the years and I keep adding and changing things in the list.
Here's what I've compiled:
NOTE: Some of the things in my list are pretty out there.

MKII Fixes and Balance

FIRST AND FOREMOST - Make it so all characters do not have to complete the full walking animation
before they can duck. Currently, this only applies to the Ninjas. All other
characters have to tap block or do a kara jab before they can duck or stop
walking forward or backwards.
- Shang Tsung's jab hitbox needs to be moved a few pixels higher so he doesn't
have such a huge advantage against Male Ninjas and Raiden/Jax up close.
- Male Ninja jab hitboxes need to be moved a few pixels lower so they can actually
use them on opponents who are ducking and blocking.
- Sweeps need to have a few frames more recover to stop them from being so abusable.
- Juggles outside of the corner need to have no pushback after 4 hits.
- Male Ninja jump kick hotboxes need to be slightly lower to be able to hit
characters who can currently avoid the jump kick altogether by using a well
timed ducking LK.
- Blocked uppercut causes slightly more block stun and minor pushback.
- Close HK moves need to have less recovery so they are actually useful.
- Some Close HP moves need to have more recovery to make them less abusable.
- Any move blocked in the corner causes the "iceskate" pushout, even a single jab.
*NEW* - Male Ninja RH has less priority (aka doesn't own every jump in)
*NEW* - Liu Kang and Kung Lao's ducking LK needs a few more recovery frames

Reptile
=======
+ Tongue Pull - Works like Spear only it does not stun, it pulls them back and they struggle like
slipping on Ice Puddle facing away from Reptile.
+ Acid Puddle - Doesn't stun, just does damage while opponent is in it's range.
+ Forceball comes out faster like in UMK3, fast and slow version but only one on the screen at a time.
- Remove Slide

Mileena
=======
+ Ball - Bigger hitbox so it can be used as Anti-Air.
Disabled after 4 hits.
- Air Sai - When used outside of a combo, it comes out slower and has more recovery time.
- Sai takes 3 seconds to charge, can be glitched using MGP/MBK method.
- Telekick attacks the position the opponent was when the move was initiated, not where
they are when she appears at the top of the screen.
This removes the nearly guaranteed victory when she has her opponent on Danger.

Cage
====
+ Red Shadow Kick is no longer random and travels full screen and is faster than regular Shadow Kick.
+ Nut Punch has a bigger hitbox to make it more useful.
+ Shadow Uppercut has less startup and a bigger hitbox.

Raiden
======
+ Super Shock Grab - Done by holding HP for 15 seconds. Unblockable.
You will hear electricity to let you know you the move is charged.
Does more damage than regular Shock Grab.
Cannot be used with the MGP/MBK method to avoid infinite Super Shock Grabs.
+ Teleport away - Same startup, more recovery upon reform. 5 second downtime after use.
+ Air Teleport - Can be used with normal teleport or away teleport inputs. 5 second downtime after use.
- Superman - When blocked, Raiden doesn't bounce so far away. This will prevent move abuse against characters
who have a hard time punishing the move.

Jax
===
+ Gotcha Grabs - Afterward, opponent is knocked slightly higher after last hit to remove guaranteed moves
by opponent when they land.
- Ground Pound - More startup and recovery.
Cannot do special moves while charging LK.
- Air Throw - Smaller hitbox
- HK has less range

Liu Kang
========
- Air Fireball - Longer recovery
- Low Fireball - Longer recovery. Can be hit by Iceball in recovery frames.
- Flying Kick - More susceptible to uppercuts.

Sub-Zero
========
+ Iceball - Can be used to freeze opponent in the air after an aaHP or deep jump kick.
Disabled after 2 hits (aaHP->freeze = freeze disabled for the rest of the combo)
+ Snowball - Animation from fatality. Throws a slow moving snowball that travels 1/2 screen.
If it hits, the opponent cannot jump for 3 seconds.

Scorpion
========
+ Leg Takedown - Can hold down to cancel kipup animation and recover faster.
Opponent cannot recover this way.
This prevents a free uppercut after the move connects.
+ Teleport - ALWAYS works when not cornered. *NEW*
- Spear - Longer recovery

Kung Lao
========
+ Teleport - Can hold down after teleport to cancel the float and recover ducking.
- Spin Shield - Disabled after 1 hit.

Shang Tsung
===========
+ Morph - Can morph at will from whoever he is currently to any character, even back to himself.
- After Morph is used it is disabled for 5 seconds
- You can always Morph back to Shang at any time with no limitations, but the limitation
remains for morphing into other characters.
*NEW* - You cannot actively morph when a containment move is active (frozen, floating from fan lift),
but Shang can morph back to himself like he normally does.
- Jump Kick has less prioroty.

Baraka
======
+ Low Spark - works like Liu Kang's Low Fireball.
+ Double Knee is a true combo.
+ Charging Blades attack from MKD

Kitana
======
Can't think of any changes...

 

[GoldenOreos]

add a run button,make it to where u can aahp freeze someone with sub zero......im sure i can come up with alot but thats some main stuff i would like to happen. i like mk2 alot but from playing umk3 so much it makes it very slow....be cool to have that run button and make it to where the hit boxs were changed like u said,that pisses me off alot but thats about it for me.

 

[Konqrr]

I'd love to see scorps leg grab become useful. It actually is a great move with some weird priority.

Another thing that pisses me off is that Liu can't even be LK'd after a low fireball in a scenario where a sweep would take too long. But even if he could, he could cancel into a bike kick while your LK recovered lol.

Ah yes...the standing recovery on being hit by a LK. That should be fixed too. If LK hits then it should have the same recovery as if you were hit by HK, maybe a bit less. They could do part of the animation of sliding on the Ice Puddle.

EDIT: Liu gets a FREE MBK infinite on you if you HIT him with a standing LK!

 

[Vassago187]

I'd completely remove Jax's multi-slam. That is the lamest shit and it causes waaay too much damage!

 

[btbb99]

nicely said ninjalord, i agree with everything you said to a tee, i for one actually hate the run button and that is 1 of the big reasons i prefer mk2 over umk3... is the game perfect? no... would there be some things i could change about the game if i could? yes... but for a game that came out in 1993 and people are still playing and enjoying it , i have to say midway did a awesome job with this game... its my favorite fighting game of all time and i don't think that will ever change...

 

[Tim Static]

i don't think some of the young umk3 players understand why mk2 is so important to some people. if you aren't old enough to have played it in the arcades in 1994 then you won't know what it was like to be a kid getting the first look at mk2-- it was unreal. that said. a run button for mk2 is not needed. konqrr's ideas are great but i wish the ninja roundhouses were less effective. ill think of some other stuff later but i just wish someone would remake a new 2d mk. it won't happen but it would make a lot of money and cost virtually nothing. imagine a new mk game where u didn't know the moves like the old days...sigh. anyway back to the discussion.

No, MKII is a good game, probably the 2nd best MK but its DATED. Slow, boring and more like a chess match than a fighter, which is fine, but it just makes it seem so old.

BTW, i was playing MKII @ the arcades in 1993, so that card is gonna fly. UMK3 is such a better fighter, and thats fact.

But i'd like to see Sheeva and maybe Kabal added to MKII lol. They always seemed like MKII characters in MK3 (Kang too but he is in MKII)

 

[MKB]

No, MKII is a good game, probably the 2nd best MK but its DATED. Slow, boring and more like a chess match than a fighter, which is fine, but it just makes it seem so old.

BTW, i was playing MKII @ the arcades in 1993, so that card is gonna fly. UMK3 is such a better fighter, and thats fact.

But i'd like to see Sheeva and maybe Kabal added to MKII lol. They always seemed like MKII characters in MK3 (Kang too but he is in MKII)

I think Tim said it well here. MK2 is like a chess match and I enjoy a good intellectual stimulation (along with a little bloody brutality).

Anyway, to the point of the thread....

Eliminate MBK, MGP, and multi-air sais. Increase delay time between all those projectiles. Bring in the aggressor meter from MKT. However, here's where it would be different (and better) than MKT. When a player earns the aggressor status, he can do combos like in MK3+. This would force many turtlers to play a more aggressive style.

 

[Vassago187]

for the most part i agree with konqrr's balance issues but I'm not sure about adding new moves as much. I defeinlty wouldn't want reptiles slide removed. It may only be useful because his arsenal is so weak so it may give him extra advantage if his other moves aren't so pussified. I'm definitly more for balance changes like the hitbox changes and pushback rules. Things like limiting Jax's HK range and the male ninjas roundhouse priority would help even things out greatly. I severely agree with modifying cage's shadow uppercut and scorpions scissor sweep to be useful in the least would help those chars a lot.

 

[Konqrr]

for the most part i agree with konqrr's balance issues but I'm not sure about adding new moves as much. I defeinlty wouldn't want reptiles slide removed. It may only be useful because his arsenal is so weak so it may give him extra advantage if his other moves aren't so pussified.

I agree, but if he had a much better forceball and added moves like the ones I posted, if he kept the slide he could very well be too good lol

I also agree on the priority of the Male Ninja roundhouse...but Baraka's is better! It's slower but hits higher and owns everything lol

 

[david_GEM]

Eliminate anti-air! It's fucking stupid!!!

 

[Pr0fessor]

Eliminate anti-air! It's fucking stupid!!!

Hahahaha, are you serious?

 

[MKB]

Eliminate anti-air! It's fucking stupid!!!

^^ gets anti-air'd often

 

[kingpdoubler]

Change lui kang's annoying ass sound effects and noises and raiden's too. Raiden's are kind of cool though. give kitana sub zero's slide. give reptile 2 forceballs at a time. Give baraka kabals run .

 

[frznsldr]

make scorpions spear movement look more like the mk1 style. it looked more realistic. in mk2 it looks like a pointy stick with a rope wrapped around it. in mk1 it actually looked like a rope that sagged. in the movie its got a fuckn lizard face thing lmao.

 

[Tim Static]

I think Tim said it well here. MK2 is like a chess match and I enjoy a good intellectual stimulation (along with a little bloody brutality).

The mindgames in UMK3 > chess like play of MKII

And i do like the idea of this game getting balanced. Its by far one of the more un-balanced fighters ever made.

 

[david_GEM]

Hahahaha, are you serious?

When I first ever saw it I was like "What?....that's bullshit!"
If you notice I almost never do it, then guys abuse it and others base their entire style off of waiting for someone to jump.
If you also notice, I STILL FUCKING JUMP!

 

[btbb99]

being tho i like to use sub alot if i could change 1 thing about this game i would change the fact that you can't ground freeze in the corner, i hate when players just run to the corner and stay there to take it away.. especially players that play with jax and just run there and ground pound..

 

[Konqrr]

Change lui kang's annoying ass sound effects and noises and raiden's too. Raiden's are kind of cool though. give kitana sub-zero's slide. give reptile 2 forceballs at a time. Give baraka kabals run.

It's because of those crazy sound effects that I like to play as Liu and Raiden!

If Kitana had a Slide, she would be BROKEN.

Reptile having two forceballs might work, but it would be very hard to balance in a game with no damage protection like MKII.

MKII with Kabal's Dash WILL NEVER HAPPEN! Too broken. That's why I listed Baraka as needing his Blade Charge move from Deception.

make scorpions spear movement look more like the mk1 style. it looked more realistic. in mk2 it looks like a pointy stick with a rope wrapped around it. in mk1 it actually looked like a rope that sagged. in the movie its got a fuckn lizard face thing lmao.

Just looking for gameplay tweaks and additions, nothing aesthetic right now.

being tho i like to use sub alot if i could change 1 thing about this game i would change the fact that you can't ground freeze in the corner, i hate when players just run to the corner and stay there to take it away.. especially players that play with jax and just run there and ground pound.

If Sub could use his Ground Ice with his opponent in the corner, once he had someone trapped it would be game over. That would be way too powerful a tool for him to have. I'm glad you can't do that move while they are in the corner.

1) been said but a subzero air punch to freeze like scorpion's spear.
2) shang tsung could have (1) directional fireball like kung lao's hat.
3) kung lao's spin should have an easier button combo to make it more effective
4) mileena could have a fake teleport
5) cage's nutpunch should punch female chars in the stomach.
6) fix liu kang's jump kick.
7) give scorpion a fake spear throw complete with the sound effect. fake

1) yes
2) no, he doesn't need it
3) I agree
4) no, she doesn't need it
5) I agree, perhaps the female chars could go into the "slipping on ice puddle" animation, then fall down
6) While it is one of the worst jump kicks (like Lao), it has it's uses and his jump punch hits where his jump kick doesn't
7 That might be overpowered

 

[btbb99]

if sub could ground freeze you in the corner you wouldn't necessaraily be trapped there because if he went to freeze, you could jump kick him and get out of it that way

 

[Konqrr]

if sub could ground freeze you in the corner you wouldn't necessaraily be trapped there because if he went to freeze, you could jump kick him and get out of it that way

But why would he freeze? He could just wait there, if you jump he gets free RH, if you block he gets free ground ice.

It would make sub stupid good and that's what we are trying to prevent.

 

[AriaDelano]

Eliminate anti-air! It's fucking stupid!!!

That is the best part of the game IMO, and I never wait for people to jump, I just bait them!

Konqrr had some good ones, and I might be redundant, but here it is:

1) Take away 1 superpower from jax, he is too strong even if he is slow and bulky.
2) Take away 1 superpower from kang, and his low toe.
3) Give mileena an extra 2 secs for her sais.
4) Reptile, Faster forceball! Faster forceball! Faster forceball!
5) Give cage a higher hitbox for jab pressure, he cant be touched by anybody on the inside while he is ducking.
6) @Scheiss, agreed with the scorp takedown, too punishable if used.
7) Cages shadow uc SHOULD connect to a combo, somehow.
8) Give the ninjas jab pressure or a better buffer against the girls, raiden, and shang.

 

[Vassago187]

x1million on faster forceball!

 

[Konqrr]

Lao/Liu d.LK needs to have a couple more frames of recovery so Scorpion has a chance because right now he can't win against a Liu/Lao player who knows how abuse it against Scorp.

 

[Vassago187]

i used to have a hard time with the low toe but now I can counter it pretty well. It still should have a bit more recovery like the d.HK

 

[david_GEM]

idk about a faster forceball, but def make the release quicker and easier to block from. If not then it needs to take more damage because it's not the easiest move to incorporate into an intense match.

I just have a personal hatred for anti-air. I like catching people off guard when they think I'm not gonna jump again. Bating people into it isn't a problem but it will always be stupid to me; who knows, maybe I'd be a much better player if I did it.

I think low toe should stay, if ur gonna take it away then take away Lao's low toe. I've beaten a lot of low toes with scorp that's including itsthetoe and foozer when he did it. It should def be easier to counter I guess, but just how other characters have basic move- perks (not sure how to word that). Lui has a better toe than most.

btw I like this thread.