Match-Up Discussion - D'Vorah Are these bad match-ups for D'Vorah?

[Ostrich Police Hero]

So, I've been running ranked games all night and I noticed that I would generally have a really hard time fighting against Kitana and Liu Kang (specifically his Flame Fist variant).

From the Kitana players I experienced really aggressive zoning with the fans, and was having a really hard time getting around that.

Just wondering if anybody was having the same troubles against them. Do you think they're bad match-ups, or is it just me specifically having issues dealing with them?

While we're here, are there any characters that you think D'Vorah has bad match-ups against?

 

[Vak Phoenix]

It has been 2 days since the game has been released. please

 

[Ostrich Police Hero]

It has been 2 days since the game has been released. please

Good point, actually.
I forget that it just came out.

 

[Fogelstrom]

Also I think everyone should make more threads about everything instead of using the GENERAL thread to adress any issues

 

[Phosferrax]

It has been 2 days since the game has been released. please

I don't there is anything wrong with questioning MU's early on, especially since the OP specifically asked if it was his short comings as a player. MU discussion should be actively encouraged as long as it is informative.

 

[HarmTheHomeless]

D'Vorah vs Jax 4 - 6

My reasoning... Jax has a much stronger neutral game then D'Vorrah mid screen being able to check all her options and can beat through her pressure with fast safe pokes that carry strong range. Full screen jax can out zone dvorah with his projectile that can be charged. In the corner... ha. That's the real reason its 4-6

 

[Cinnabun]

D'Vorah in Swarm Queen variation loses to a lot of zoners pretty free. I competed in a tournament on Saturday and Quan Chi has every tool to keep D'vorah out.
D'vorah vs Quan Chi 3-7
D'vorah vs Sub-Zero 5-5
D'vorah vs Reptile 6-4

This is at least my opinion. For sub zero and reptile, her u3 beats all their reversals and so sub has to play grandmaster to truly beat her.

 

[mountlover]

D'Vorah vs Jax 4 - 6

D'vorah vs Quan Chi 3-7
D'vorah vs Sub-Zero 5-5
D'vorah vs Reptile 6-4

That's not how those numbers work. You're supposed get heuristics on whether a character wins or loses a matchup (or is "even") from multiple sources then calculate the ratios.

As for the zoning question, yes, D'vorah has poopoo projectiles and no teleports or moves that fly across the screen. As a result she deals with zoners more poorly than most of the cast. She *does* have options however if you're getting zoned out at full range:

1) If you have full meter, you can try to edge your way to mid screen (run stop crouch block, run stop crouch block, if the opponent jumps away just don't stop running and you'll be in range for a 1,1,3) then blow up the next projectile with an X-Ray. Unless you're on 1 HP this works every time.

2) If you don't have full meter, but you're using swarm queen and one of the following is true:

• Your opponent throws out multiple projectiles back to back
• Your opponent jumps for any reason at all.

...you can use a db1 to catch your opponent, then run up and try to follow up with a f2,2,4 before they hit the ground. You can increase the window to do a followup combo if you meterburn the db1.
In the former scenario, you let out the db1 right after blocking the first projectile, then accept that you're going to trade with the second. The trade is in your favor, take it.
The latter scenario doesn't work 100% of the time, but it blows up air projectile users like kitana and cassie. You may still end up trading, but again, it's in your favor.

Aside from these, you can always just try to "fundamentals" your way in. Jump over low projectiles, duck under high projectiles (cr. 4 and sweep lower your hurtbox if you time it perfectly), block breaker if you have meter to spare, and run whenever you see an opportunity. It's very rare in high level play that a matchup will ever be dictated entirely by zoning (one exception being Supes in Injustice with his lazors).

 

[TheSpore]

I play against a good Kitana quite a bit actually, fans inch your way in but DO NOT BLOCK just duck under the fans, in this game High projectiles still hit blocking opponents, when you get out sweep be ready to block for an inevitable fan lift, and punish dat sheet with extreme prejudice

 

[HarmTheHomeless]

That's not how those numbers work. You're supposed get heuristics on whether a character wins or loses a matchup (or is "even") from multiple sources then calculate the ratios.

As for the zoning question, yes, D'vorah has poopoo projectiles and no teleports or moves that fly across the screen. As a result she deals with zoners more poorly than most of the cast. She *does* have options however if you're getting zoned out at full range:

1) If you have full meter, you can try to edge your way to mid screen (run stop crouch block, run stop crouch block, if the opponent jumps away just don't stop running and you'll be in range for a 1,1,3) then blow up the next projectile with an X-Ray. Unless you're on 1 HP this works every time.

2) If you don't have full meter, but you're using swarm queen and one of the following is true:

• Your opponent throws out multiple projectiles back to back
• Your opponent jumps for any reason at all.

...you can use a db1 to catch your opponent, then run up and try to follow up with a f2,2,4 before they hit the ground. You can increase the window to do a followup combo if you meterburn the db1.
In the former scenario, you let out the db1 right after blocking the first projectile, then accept that you're going to trade with the second. The trade is in your favor, take it.
The latter scenario doesn't work 100% of the time, but it blows up air projectile users like kitana and cassie. You may still end up trading, but again, it's in your favor.

Aside from these, you can always just try to "fundamentals" your way in. Jump over low projectiles, duck under high projectiles (cr. 4 and sweep lower your hurtbox if you time it perfectly), block breaker if you have meter to spare, and run whenever you see an opportunity. It's very rare in high level play that a matchup will ever be dictated entirely by zoning (one exception being Supes in Injustice with his lazors).

So do you disagree with my reasoning? And did you really suggest using an xray? Lol

 

[mountlover]

So do you disagree with my reasoning? And did you really suggest using an xray? Lol

I haven't played enough good Jaxes to agree or disagree. So far the only matchup I'd be confident saying sq d'vorah loses is hat trick Kung Lao.

Also, options are options. If you think xrays are scrubby you're just limiting your own toolset. I'd say a guaranteed reversal and hard knockdown from mid screen on a keep away character + ~35% damage is worth three bars. D'vorah doesn't really have any better uses of meter except breaker.

 

[G4S MinotaurLord]

D'Vorah has plenty of good uses for meter. EX ovipostor on wakeup is armored and will hit through other people's armor - it's one of her best checks against overagressive opponents. In addition, her EX db1 is useful in a lot of combos, and in Venomous her EX df1 is hella plus. I can do more with her with 1 meter than her x-ray will as a counter poke. If you're not using her meter for things besides breakers and x-rays, check your comments about who is actually limiting their moveset.

 

[mountlover]

D'Vorah has plenty of good uses for meter.

I'll agree to disagree here. All the things you listed like having positive strings and handling wakeup pressure can be done without wasting meter. Meter is life in this game, and if you throw it away by meterburning everything you're shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[HoneyBee]

D'Vorah has plenty of good uses for meter. EX ovipostor on wakeup is armored and will hit through other people's armor - it's one of her best checks against overagressive opponents. In addition, her EX db1 is useful in a lot of combos, and in Venomous her EX df1 is hella plus. I can do more with her with 1 meter than her x-ray will as a counter poke. If you're not using her meter for things besides breakers and x-rays, check your comments about who is actually limiting their moveset.

It's not. Don't trust the in game frame data. It's -17.

 

[G4S MinotaurLord]

It's not. Don't trust the in game frame data. It's -17.

Went back to fact check myself, I think you're right. I remembered reading somewhere that the data on the ex and normal were switched, and that the normal was unsafe but the EX is safe - that is definitely not the case.

Unless you plan on exclusively coming at opponents with f44 and b12, I maintain that, at least in Venomous, using a bar after hit confirmed 212 allows you to get more poison stacking by a LOT than without meter. I messed around with swarm queen and agree that meter is far less important in that variation.

Speaking of bad matchups, frame data, and getting in, which strings do you find yourselves using most when you get in to start pressure, and how much of that is shaped by your variation?

 

[PND_Ketchup]

D'Vorah in Swarm Queen variation loses to a lot of zoners pretty free. I competed in a tournament on Saturday and Quan Chi has every tool to keep D'vorah out.
D'vorah vs Quan Chi 3-7
D'vorah vs Sub-Zero 5-5
D'vorah vs Reptile 6-4

This is at least my opinion. For sub zero and reptile, her u3 beats all their reversals and so sub has to play grandmaster to truly beat her.

D'Vorah - Quan is NOT a 7-3 in his favour.

It is literally impossible to tell if a match is that bad so early on.

 

[VenomX-90]

She's a bad MU for Reptile since Reptiles eat bugs.

 

[iMileena]

Dvorah has great range but her weakness is fast projectiles, i played against jaqui & lost like 3 times due to that fucking gun !!! But other then that her mix ups are life

 

[HarmTheHomeless]

Pl

Dvorah has great range but her weakness is fast projectiles, i played against jaqui & lost like 3 times due to that fucking gun !!! But other then that her mix ups are life

This might sound crazy but so far its helped out a shit ton against zoners who zones are highs. I've been whiffing her f4 but letting her 2 roll connect and then d1 into spray. The roll lowering her tiny ass hurtbox even smaller and blowing up projectiles. The d1 to confirm and the squirts to stand up and put them in a fucked is he going to f2(oh) or d4(low) me. Oh damn dis that poison seriously take that much away? Oh god, dvorah stop spraying. I can't take it all in.

 

[Krackatoa]

Dvorah has great range but her weakness is fast projectiles, i played against jaqui & lost like 3 times due to that fucking gun !!! But other then that her mix ups are life

Full-Auto is gimmicks. After ducking Hand Cannon, immediately do db1. It will trade in your favour if you interrupt a followup hand cannon.

 

[HarmTheHomeless]

Full-Auto is gimmicks. After ducking Hand Cannon, immediately do db1. It will trade in your favour if you interrupt a followup hand cannon.

Risky, have you tried run canceling into block as a reversal to close up the space?

 

[Krackatoa]

Risky, have you tried run canceling into block as a reversal to close up the space?

It's not risky. She can't hit you with anything. She doesn't have enough time after whiffed guns to land a jump in. The only thing you risk eating is MB Hand Cannon.

 

[Take$$$]

So, I've been running ranked games all night and I noticed that I would generally have a really hard time fighting against Kitana and Liu Kang (specifically his Flame Fist variant).

From the Kitana players I experienced really aggressive zoning with the fans, and was having a really hard time getting around that.

Just wondering if anybody was having the same troubles against them. Do you think they're bad match-ups, or is it just me specifically having issues dealing with them?

While we're here, are there any characters that you think D'Vorah has bad match-ups against?

Kitana(rs and assassin) is a pretty good matchup for Swarm Queen imo. I play against my little brothers Kitanas all the time and hes really good. She has a hard time blocking once you get b1 and f22 WC combos down, and she can't really toss fans at you. If she tries to zones with fans, just toss out a vortex. If it trades, most of the time you can run and still combo off it for 29%+.

For assassin kitana. If she starts watching the vortex and punishes with assassin strike start ducking the fans and walk up, but start blocking every fan or two when you get kinda close because assassin strike can catch you sleeping. In order for her to do this when she's tossing out tons of fans, the timing on the vortex needs to be kind of off though.

You can also whiff an f4 into 2 and slide under fans when she pauses the fan spam for a second. u3 deals with pretty much every wakeup option she has too, since even if its armored it'll still hit and you'll dodge the special. Just watch out for her ji2 since you'll eat a 40%+ combo if it hits, or a 30%+ if she catches you in the air with it, and don't get jump happy around 30% life because of her unbreakable combos.

 

[RM Truth]

People are complaining that Dvorah's zoning options are bad, but what about using her DB1 to beat over aggressive zoners? Seems like it would trade pretty well for her.

 

[The Magician]

People are complaining that Dvorah's zoning options are bad, but what about using her DB1 to beat over aggressive zoners? Seems like it would trade pretty well for her.

Trading Db1 mid/fullscreen is the best thing you can probably do against aggressive zoning Kitana's. Or using your f42 slide to duck fans, watch out for Throat Slice or Assassin Strike; if you block they are full combo punishable. Also, watch out for their f1, its -34 on block and -24 on hit adv--you have about 1ish to 2 seconds to punish it.