Question Are fundamentally-strong and innovative players superior to those who work hard?

[Crusty]

Greetings TYM, name's Crusty the Clown and I'm here to raise an important and peculiar question about fighting games in general. I haven't been a fighting game player for long as IGAU is my first fighting game and already I can't help but wonder if the the nuisance around this question is present within the FGC.

It's been a couple of days and this question has but plagued me if anything else.

Are innovative fighting game players, i.e. the players who come up with their own combos, setups, tech etc, are vastly superior to those who simply learn from they see here online or YT, aka non-innovative players?

Examples include using a vortex setup for Sinestro which I saw by Vulcan Hades, or the reverse corner setup with GA by ando and implementing them into my gameplay

Now this question just flat out irks me; it just pisses me off to think about it. I've had an argument with my friend on IGAU who accused me of being an inferior player compared to him simply because he stated I didn't come up with all the things he sees me use in our matches while he claimed to have 'made up all his setups'. To his argument, he was right on me being unoriginal, but did he have to bash me for it by "not being on his level'?

Exactly what was he inferring, I had asked him. Then it escalated to him saying, that he had the game longer than me and didn't have to be a wimp and look up stuff online, all that nonsense; then stating he has better fundamentals.

Call me the dense one but why? We both love the same game, we both are competent players but did he have to spell that difference to me when I started outsmarting him in the neutral mainly because I practice my butt off every single day while he 'has fundamentals and innovation" that make him a better player. Not that I don't have fundamentals, as I know what to block and when.

I ask you TYM as we traverse into MKX; will players who just learn by watching will be inferior to those who come up with their own crap. Will the underdogs be forever mocked just for trying to get better? Does being the player who cannot learn on their own make them a bill of a player? I cannot help but fear that this will be a pressing question as I further evolve myself as a player.

 

[tatterbug4]

Using stuff you didn't make doesn't make you bad it just makes you smarter because you use the highest dmg/ best way to do something. If you found something on your own, good find but usually mostly everything is found.

 

[Eji1700]

Fighting games are all about diligence and execution. There's several top tier players I can think of who are AWFUL at evaluating new characters, understanding mechanics, or optimizing combos (and as a result tend to do awful just after launch). NONE of that matters. Fighters are all about who can perform consistently and under pressure and then be creative during a match with what they know. You can come up with all the combo's and setups in the world, but if you can't do it mid match then you're just screwed.

In short it's absolutely fine, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's plenty of games that might reward creativity more ( i play dota because I enjoy drafting and creative strats), and fighters give some reward for it (if you know how to rush down with a zoner or vice versa people are NOT going to be ready for that shit), but ultimately your friend needs to just accept it.

 

[Shaazzyam]

two things that aren't mutually exclusive.

the better player is the one who wins.

 

[Khaoz77]

This is a very interesting question.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter if you come up with your own shit or adapt things from other people, the better player will win because he knows the matchup, is able to shut down the options of his opponent, etc.

If your friend was as good as he claims he is, all that shit he said about you being inferior because you aren't utilizing original tech is wrong. This is a community, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with using tech discovered by other people, top players do it all the time, just look at UMvC3!

Now, it is encouraged for you to hit up training mode and just experiment with things so you kind of have an idea of how to deal with situations your own way. It opens up your mind to different concepts and options, and will make you think outside the box. But other than that, don't beat yourself up.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

"Work smart, not hard."

 

[LockM]

The player that wins is superior, doesn't matter if he used already known tactics, combos, setups and whatnot or if he came up with it by himself.

 

[TotteryManx]

Seems the same to me? If you are superior you've probably put in the work. i.e. frame data, spacing, MU's, etc. etc.

 

[Justice]

I know a guy that can Come up with amazing kombos (70%+ with Lobo on release day) but he places poorly in tournaments due to below average fundamentals. Some people have an innate sense of these things, others need to work and train. Both are just as good and have the same chances to excel, but one will spend less time in Practice modes.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

being fundamentally strong comes after hard work. does matter who made up what. it matters how you use it

 

[Xerclipse]

I had two characters in Mortal Kombat. One that I made up my own combos/set ups, and the other where I had to watch online for combo/tech videos. My second one is much better! I used them both equally but they are not equally good from the way I use them.

In my theory, I believe that it's how you use the character, not if you made up the combos, tech, and set ups. I can create something and know everything about it, but you will always have a chance to exceed my skills on using it than I can. Being Developer or innovator does not mean being better at using it. Although being developer/innovator and being good at it is a big + to you.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

what makes a good player isnt originality and making up set ups combos and tech, but knowing when and where to use said set ups combos and tech, yes it is important to make up your own stuff that no one else has seen before so you can throw people off guard, but that only goes so far until nothing else can be discovered.

 

[Xerclipse]

In Mortal Kombat, I did not make up my own stuff. In Injustice, I did. I am a lot better at Mortal Kombat than I am at Injustice. I play very well in both of those but I feel more at home at Mortal Kombat.

When I made up my own stuff, I felt much more confident and connected with my character. It really felt natural to me to use Catwoman because of how much damage my own combos did. But it didn't really help me win every single game although I got good at Injustice. But my Mortal Kombat skills are much better there.

So making up your own stuff is a big plus to your gameplay because you could feel more connected with your character and it feels very natural. But you won't play any worse if you only look up online videos of tech and combos for your character. Thats how I held my ground most of the time at Mortal Kombat.

 

[DaiHuu]

Innovators usually only have the advantage when a new game comes out (I will preface this by saying I was the guy to share all my tech with Nightwolf when MK9 first dropped.). If they decide to share within the game coming out then they start getting out-classed by the hard workers, unless they themselves are also a hard worker. But to answer the last part of your post, don't sweat it bro. You're getting better and as long as yo keep to your style of play, then what's the big deal? You do you and be godlike.

 

[Undeadjim]

It sounds like your friend was looking for an excuse after your victories. He may be experiencing the phenomenon know as 'Salt' if people only used setups they found people would have a pretty terrible experience with fighters.

 

[Crusty]

What you are asking is, to borrow terms from Richard Garfield, who wins out--honers or innovators? That is a question that the designers have to tackle. How they design the game will determine that.


I always post this when questions like this come up. He discusses this very thing in terms of designing ortho games.
Taken from this link:

http://forum.frontrowcrew.com/discussion/9522/definitions-of-game-orthogame-and-idiogame
Orthogame:
A competition between two or more players using an agreed-upon set of rules and a method of ranking.

Hmm, interesting.

You studying game design btw