Match-up Discussion Alright, here is my Deathstroke matchup chart, would like to hear the thoughts of the community

[Duck Nation]

I think Nitti is right about KF, but the point stands for other characters. DS really is supposed to live on the strength of his tools and in most matches he can, but if his tools are neutralized then he really can't keep up.

 

[Mikman360]

The problem is they also ahve access to those tools just as you do. And they're reward for getting in is much much much much much more rewarding than DSs blah keepaway. DS only beats bad and unpatients KFs easily. NW is 5-5, KF is 7-3 her favor.

NW can't even reach those drones in staff mode, and staff mode is what bothers DS the most. DS controls interactables incredibly well.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

The problem is they also ahve access to those tools just as you do. And they're reward for getting in is much much much much much more rewarding than DSs blah keepaway. DS only beats bad and unpatients KFs easily. NW is 5-5, KF is 7-3 her favor.

7-3? i have a feeling nobody in this community knows what 7-3 actually looks like

 

[Duck Nation]

7-3? i have a feeling nobody in this community knows what 7-3 actually looks like

The Flash.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

The Flash.

yeah that for sure is a 7-3 because you just gotta hope he fucks up or you somehow get him in the corner. killer frost there are many other ways to deal with her than that

 

[G4S Silent Jay]

7-3? i have a feeling nobody in this community knows what 7-3 actually looks like

Hawkgirl. I mean, it goes the other way, but that much is so free it hurts...

 

[haketh]

7-3? i have a feeling nobody in this community knows what 7-3 actually looks like

Talking about yourself correct? Sound like one of the dudes who would think Team ROW vs MSP is a 5-5.

yeah that for sure is a 7-3 because you just gotta hope he fucks up or you somehow get him in the corner. killer frost there are many other ways to deal with her than that

Tell me how then? How do you deal with the fact that the risk/reward for gunshots is way in her favor? How do you deal with hoping to god you get the right lucky stage to sue against her? how do you deal with a character that handles the footsies range better than DS? how do you deal when one of the standout things of DS, his wakeups are irrelevant int he MU?

NW can't even reach those drones in staff mode, and staff mode is what bothers DS the most. DS controls interactables incredibly well.

Use Escrima to get your way in then Staff once you're in and control how DS uses interactables. NW MU is 5-5 but it's one that can lean towards 6-4 NW

 

[Duck Nation]

Nitti's actually right. KF is not in the same boat as say, Raven or Flash, who can seriously outstrip DS on a bad read at a distance, or even really do a devastating punish on low shots. She's stuck to the ground, and the only real special thing she can do in the air is airdash. She has to contend with DS on the ground, and almost anything she does is going to get her shot with quick fire. Even if she punishes low shots on a bad read, she only gets an EX iceberg into another iceberg at most. It stinks, but it's not that much damage and it does not earn her position. Meanwhile, DS has answers to her close up bullshit, and her good option for dealing with oki can be made to whiff if not brutally punished. She's vulnerable to reaction stroke tactics and she has to take risks to run her game against DS. Having a low shot punish is a boon for her, but it's mostly obnoxious rather than deciding the match.

 

[G4S Silent Jay]

Nitti's actually right. KF is not in the same boat as say, Raven or Flash, who can seriously outstrip DS on a bad read at a distance, or even really do a devastating punish on low shots. She's stuck to the ground, and the only real special thing she can do in the air is airdash. She has to contend with DS on the ground, and almost anything she does is going to get her shot with quick fire. Even if she punishes low shots on a bad read, she only gets an EX iceberg into another iceberg at most. It stinks, but it's not that much damage and it does not earn her position. Meanwhile, DS has answers to her close up bullshit, and her good option for dealing with oki can be made to whiff if not brutally punished. She's vulnerable to reaction stroke tactics and she has to take risks to run her game against DS. Having a low shot punish is a boon for her, but it's mostly obnoxious rather than deciding the match.

Just to add, if she's at within slide range, that EX Iceburg can become a pull combo when it's linked into slide, and that will set up her vortex. So, she can just flip coins until you guess right.

Definitely feeling it as a 5-5, but just saying, she can really make use of Low Guns hurt.

 

[Ermaculate_Slim]

The Flash versus deathstroke is not 7-3 Flash you gotta be kidding me

 

[haketh]

She can punish LGS just a little bit out fo fullscreen with MB Iceberg, Dash, Slide. The MU is not even close to 5-5. Sounds like you guys really don't know much about KF, after playing with some really dece3nt ones I picked her up along Stroke. 7-3 might be pushing it but it's definitley a 6-4, not 5-5. xKhaoTik mind dropping some knowledge?

 

[xKhaoTik]

Busy atm, but I will put my thoughts in soon.

She definitely wins the MU tho.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

The Flash versus deathstroke is not 7-3 Flash you gotta be kidding me

how would you say that? the flash has to give zero fucks about guns and not only that, hes the only character that can punish low guns and stay in your face without using meter. you can't do low guns, high guns frame trap because hes just gong to dash and be safe anyway, and his dash is like a fucking mile. armoring through his shit isnt really a great idea since most of his shit hits multiple times. his damage output is significantly higher than DS's and he has all the bullshit frametraps in the world

She can punish LGS just a little bit out fo fullscreen with MB Iceberg, Dash, Slide. The MU is not even close to 5-5. Sounds like you guys really don't know much about KF, after playing with some really dece3nt ones I picked her up along Stroke. 7-3 might be pushing it but it's definitley a 6-4, not 5-5. xKhaoTik mind dropping some knowledge?

the fact that she can punish low guns from anywhere shouldnt matter if you can react to all of her zoning tools and punish her for it because why the fuck would you use low guns to poke if you aren't mentally challenged. people still think low guns is the best thing since sliced bread and if you can punish it then they automatically 7-3 deathstroke. i actually think before the low guns nerf it was 6.5-3.5 DS because she reallly had trouble getting in and she really needed to get you in the vortex to get shit started. now it feels like both of you have similar tools and similar damage output.

 

[NYCj360]

I don't get why low guns are a factor in matchups. We know they are mega punishable now so why even consider it other than as a punish. You can low gun her daggers on reaction as a punish to make them whif, i think thats good enough. Remember that DS punishes most characters in the game from full screen just for a blocked projectile with his own.If she ducks then its time to play the neutral game. And Flash vs DS is definitely not 7-3, that is preposterous.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

I don't get why low guns are a factor in matchups. We know they are mega punishable now so why even consider it other than as a punish. You can low gun her daggers on reaction as a punish to make them whif, i think thats good enough. If she ducks then its time to play the neutral game. And Flash vs DS is definitely not 7-3, that is preposterous.

why dont you think its 7-3? a lot of people are saying its not but i would like to hear why because maybe im doing something wrong. i actually play that matchup more than any other

 

[NYCj360]

why dont you think its 7-3? a lot of people are saying its not but i would like to hear why because maybe im doing something wrong. i actually play that matchup more than any other

I don't mean to answer your question with a question, but what exactly makes it a 7-3 in your opinion? Then i can have an idea of what to address.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

I don't mean to answer your question with a question, but what exactly makes it a 7-3 in your opinion? Then i can have an idea of what to address.

he seems to not have to give any fucks about your zoning for one. he can just dash in all day and not have to worry about anything. also, he can punish low guns but without using meter, he is right in your face and has a knockdown. up close, he has better moves that hit multiple times so armoring through them isnt really an option and his damage output is significantly higher than DS's. he also has speed dodge to nullify interactables without having to armor through them, which uses meter and you still take damage for it. i think that is really important in this MU because i feel that DS is very stage dependent. he has a hard answer to the flying ninja vortex by just using psycho crusher to get out and if you shoot him, the fuck does he care cuz hes just going to dash in all day and make it back in like its no big deal.

overall, he doesnt have to respect your zoning and hes a better character up close with a much higher damage output.

 

[Ermaculate_Slim]

how would you say that? the flash has to give zero fucks about guns and not only that, hes the only character that can punish low guns and stay in your face without using meter. you can't do low guns, high guns frame trap because hes just gong to dash and be safe anyway, and his dash is like a fucking mile. armoring through his shit isnt really a great idea since most of his shit hits multiple times. his damage output is significantly higher than DS's and he has all the bullshit frametraps in the world

Well, first of all why are you letting flash just dash into your face,keep your distance and punish his dashing with QGS or do what I do is if you see him dashing in recklessly throw a B2 or F3 out there to check em. Its not the end of the world if flash gets in DS can be very lethal up close.MB Lightning Charge can be punished if you crouch block it since the 2nd hit whiffs and you can punish with D2, 3,3,2 F23 Sword Flip if you don't know how go to the lab and practice it.If you have meter which Deathstroke always has plenty of then push block to create some distance.Don't get it twisted tho this MU can be a pain in the ass if oyu unfamiliar with the MU.This MU comes down to spacing and how well you can exploit flash's weakness which his one dimensional play style.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Well, first of all why are you letting flash just dash into your face,keep your distance and punish his dashing with QGS or do what I do is if you see him dashing in recklessly throw a B2 or F3 out there to check em. Its not the end of the world if flash gets in DS can be very lethal up close.MB Lightning Charge can be punished if you crouch block it since the 2nd hit whiffs and you can punish with D2, 3,3,2 F23 Sword Flip if you don't know how go to the lab and practice it.If you have meter which Deathstroke always has plenty of then push block to create some distance.Don't get it twisted tho this MU can be a pain in the ass if oyu unfamiliar with the MU.This MU comes down to spacing and how well you can exploit flash's weakness which his one dimensional play style.

i have a hard time to get him to stop moving if i use high guns still. his walk speed is fast enough that he can still close the gap. of course you can check him for dashing in recklessly with certain pokes (my go to choices are f3, f23 and stand 3 for plus frames) but that really seems like all you get. and yeah you can punish EX lightning charge for some reason the 2nd hit says its mid in training mode but it totally whiffs on crouching. i just go with 323 f23 flip because of the scaling on d2s. it seems like you have a similar approach to the matchup as i do but i don't see how it doesnt make it still absurdly in flash's favor because it still seems like you are fishing for mistakes like i do and i dont even think fishing for mistakes really should be accounted for in a character matchup, rather a player matchup.

 

[NYCj360]

he seems to not have to give any fucks about your zoning for one. he can just dash in all day and not have to worry about anything. also, he can punish low guns but without using meter, he is right in your face and has a knockdown. up close, he has better moves that hit multiple times so armoring through them isnt really an option and his damage output is significantly higher than DS's. he also has speed dodge to nullify interactables without having to armor through them, which uses meter and you still take damage for it. i think that is really important in this MU because i feel that DS is very stage dependent. he has a hard answer to the flying ninja vortex by just using psycho crusher to get out and if you shoot him, the fuck does he care cuz hes just going to dash in all day and make it back in like its no big deal.

overall, he doesnt have to respect your zoning and hes a better character up close with a much higher damage output.

The reasons listed are what the flash can do universally to the entire cast. One thing you have to keep in mind is that your limbs out range his, so the zoning doesn't end when he is mid screen. DS puts the flash into bad situations off of a knockdown as well and has safe mixup options on the flash as well. I think the approach of stage dependent DS is the issue here, DS can utilize the stages better than 90% of the cast but does not need them. What matters is that DS still has the ability to prevent other characters from using the interactables anywhere on screen so to me this is still an even match. Flash has a great damage output i admit, higher than deathstrokes, but this isn't even a factor against superman who has arguably the highest damaging combos in the game. 3 is your best friend against Flash and patience is key, if you try zoning him then the approach is all wrong, DS has a great safe neutral game in his 7 frame f23 string that leaves him on +9. His 32 leaves him at +4, his d2 which is a launcher into about 26% is only -1, all of these great footsie tools when fishing for combos. Gunshots may be used sparingly when you have the lead, they are still useful when used at the right times.

 

[M2Dave]

Busy atm, but I will put my thoughts in soon.

She definitely wins the MU tho.

Do not bother. This forum is stubborn. They will claim 5:5 because low gunshots being punishable anywhere on the screen is no big deal and his 50/50 mix ups are as good as Killer Frost's.

 

[M2Dave]

One thing you have to keep in mind is that your limbs out range his, so the zoning doesn't end when he is mid screen.

The Flash's b+2 is 15 frames, +3 on block, and has more range than any of Deathstroke's normal attacks.

b+2,2 xx MB sonic poind is hit-confirmable and leads to 60% combos.

Which Flash players are you fighting?

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Do not bother. This forum is stubborn. They will claim 5:5 because low gunshots being punishable anywhere on the screen is no big deal and his 50/50 mix ups are as good as Killer Frost's.

it really doesnt because all her options at the distance that you would want to use low guns are extremely reactable to so you can blow them up. think of low gunshots as dhalsim/seth far fierce in sf4

The Flash's b+2 is 15 frames, +3 on block, and has more range than any of Deathstroke's normal attacks.

b+2,2 xx MB sonic poind is hit-confirmable and leads to 60% combos.

Which Flash players are you fighting?

took the words out of my mouth

 

[NYCj360]

The Flash's b+2 is 15 frames, +3 on block, and has more range than any of Deathstroke's normal attacks.

b+2,2 xx MB sonic poind is hit-confirmable and leads to 60% combos.

Which Flash players are you fighting?

The only flash players i have played are Insayne who has an amazing flash and CD Jr. The rest are online randoms who are hit or miss, either solid or scrubby.

I'm fully aware of his damage output, but how does b22 out range his s3? or f3 which causes all advancing moves by flash to whiff? I'm also pretty sure that deathstrokes d2 being 12 frames has a pretty damn good horizontal hitbox to contest the b22. Correct me if im wrong but isn't the b22 the overhead punch?

 

[M2Dave]

it really doesnt because all her options at the distance that you would want to use low guns are extremely reactable to so you can blow them up. think of low gunshots as dhalsim/seth far fierce in sf4.

First of all, Dhalsim's standing fierce is safe at any range but up close. It is nothing like the current and highly punishable low gunshots.

Some of you are complicating these match ups. If a character has great ground control, resets, and 50/50 mix ups as Killer Frost does, the best way to beat approach the match up is to take the fight to the air (as Black Adam, Superman, and Wonder Woman do) or zone the character on the ground (as Batman does). If you cannot do either, you probably lose.

It is as simple as that.