Match-Up Discussion - A-List A-List vs Ronin

[RyuKazuya]

its really some horrible stuff there. having no hurtbox really hurts others. so i think we just have to survive the neutral game somehow :/

 

[aieches]

so i wont deny that b11 is good but honestly thats one of the reasons i will switch to Ronin- quicker normals and moves to deal with ppl like a-list if im not doing good with SR. when i play Ronin vs A-list i get just as many turns as A list. thats not the case with SR. with SR i have to hit and hit hard then set up.. with ronin- i can can kinda play the same game as a list - kinda the pont of the variation game if you ask me. ive had matchs go like

SR vs A-list - take loss then i switch to Ronin-- Ronin does better, a- list kinda more hesitant to get close then they switch to SD- SD starts to get the better or me playing a range i cant really get control of so i switch back to SR - i dunno..i just feel like eve cage beat ronin at this too there would be no balance to this match up..

 

[ragnar0kz28]

Yeah thats fair. Forgot assassin is good now.

But Cage seem to have some trouble agains it, chars with slow moves or no range will suffer.

 

[Vigilante24]

So glad I have a 9f mid and a 6f long reaching d4 to deal with this ish.

 

[Asodimazze]

I'm pretty sure b11 in the corner locks many more characters than just A-List, would be great to have a list of them.
It's basically a sort of infinite if you don't have meter and the opponent spaces it right

 

[IrishMantis]

B11 is great for making chars such as JC D4 then he whiff punishes on reaction with his OH/Low for 40%, oh Ronin missed his timing? Poor Ronin now either has to throw his sword for plus on block mind games or just plY safe and cancel into a +3 on block projectile that lets him do the exact same thing

 

[omooba]

wait wait wait wait............is this an infinite?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[Asodimazze]

wait wait wait wait............is this an infinite?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Hard to say. Looks like Cage has no options to escape without meter so you might say it is...he is free to move but escaping from b11 is impossible.
I'm pretty sure others are in the same situation, we should test other characters...I'll test my second main (F/T) later

 

[IrishMantis]

Hard to say. Looks like Cage has no options to escape without meter so you might say it is...he is free to move but escaping from b11 is impossible.
I'm pretty sure others are in the same situation, we should test other characters...I'll test my second main (F/T) later

technically we can trade at best and b11 gets slightly pushed back each time so you cant call it an infinite per se, but sure as hell feels like one.

 

[Asodimazze]

technically we can trade at best and b11 gets slightly pushed back each time so you cant call it an infinite per se, but sure as hell feels like1

How can you trade? f3 loses everytime if this is true :

If you do f3, you need to add 1 frame of release block, which result b1 beats f3 clean if the takeda player does it right.

 

[IrishMantis]

How can you trade? f3 loses everytime if this is true :

they are both 11fs but he can also be in a range that makes F3 whiff, plus we can low profile with D4 but again we can be out of range too, but on paper its nota true infinite, a superriskless and position advantage string it is no doubt

i'd say make it like -1 with twice the pushback and more whiff recovery would do the trick imo

Actually scratch the pushback do the opposite and remove push lack so he is always in D1 range

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Kitana can D1 or parry so its ok

Kitana's d1 is SHORTER than Johnny's d4. Go test Ronin vs Kitana in game to find out if d1 works (I'm not sure)

 

[ragnar0kz28]

Kitana's d1 is SHORTER than Johnny's d4. Go test Ronin vs Kitana in game to find out if d1 works (I'm not sure)

Oh Snap! only parry works, D1 looses to max range B11

 

[DOCK]

In the last days I had troubles in the Ronin matchup, so I decided to lab it more than I did in the past.
What causes me problems is the range on Takeda normals and the b11 stagger... I don't really know what to do when cornered if my opponent keeps doing b11 at a range where Johnny's moveset seems to be useless. I recorded a video in practice mode that shows the situation:

B11 beats a shadowkick reversal, beats d4, beats neutral and forward jump, beats backdash, beats any fast normal. Beats f3 too but I forgot to record it, you can try it for yourself (b11 is 0 on block. f3 starts in 11, same as b1 but gets beaten because of range).
Looks like the only thing that I can do is spend a bar and use EX Shadowkick or jump back but the opponent can just do b112 and punish my jump anyway, so it's useless.

Does Johnny have any kind of option when he doesn't have a bar?

B11 is pushback, that is, it does not block infinity, it can be repeated 1 time, ie after B11 B11 Warranty Next in the corner at the maximum Range, all subsequent B11 will not be removed and can be punished for the mistake

 

[RyuuJin882]

Ronin can do 21 on kitana in the corner and it she does rising blades it whiffs through him for full punish if she doesn't wake up hes left at +2.

Dat ronin dirt lol.

Wish I knew this 48 hours ago...

 

[Asodimazze]

B11 is pushback, that is, it does not block infinity, it can be repeated 1 time, ie after B11 B11 Warranty Next in the corner at the maximum Range, all subsequent B11 will not be removed and can be punished for the mistake

Good to know, but I think you might get even 3 or 4 reps. There is no need to be at max range, vs Cage a shorter distance will work even better (just out of his d4).

 

[DOCK]

Good to know, but I think you might get even 3 or 4 reps. There is no need to be at max range, vs Cage a shorter distance will work even better (just out of his d4).

no, we can not, as f3 Cage longer

 

[RM slacked]

how can a list have struggles when he's the best character and so broken

 

[Somea2V]

how can a list have struggles when he's the best character and so broken

It isn't. Asod is terrible. We all know that Cage opens up people for free and phases through all offense all day with dat Kitty Pryde D4.

 

[FoughtDragon01]

It isn't. Asod is terrible. We all know that Cage opens up people for free and phases through all offense all day with dat Kitty Pryde D4.

B-but... -6...

But on a more relevant note, like others have said, Cage's best bet to try and get out of that is to run in and IMMEDIATELY block afterwards to block the next b11. I've tested it a bit and there is a slim chance that you'll be close enough for either a standing 1 or a d1 to connect. Given the frame data, best case scenario is you'll beat him out, but that's like a 1-2 frame window, and because of Johnny's gawd-damn t-rex limbs, the odds of you being close enough are near nonexistent, but possible. Without meter, this really is the only way I can think of to try and put on some type of offense.

And this is all just assuming that the Takeda only uses b11. If he starts staggering into his faster strings, well... I've also found that softly crying into a pillow works wonders as well.

 

[Somea2V]

Oh, I'm sorry. Is this an honest thread about Cage's shortcomings and weaknesses? Is it? I was just trying to get out and ahead of the shitstorm of people informing us half-handedly how much we all suck at this character.

/rant

 

[IrishMantis]

Lol we think Cage has it bad which he dies wait and you see the thread I'm going to make showing what happens to little old Jaqcui in this scenario