Strategy 21 Poke Pressure

[Enenra]

Sub Zero
Inspired by Death, I have started implementing 21 mix ups into my pressure game to great success. The reasoning behind this is not only to get the extra chip, but also to physically force them ever closer to the corner.

The mix ups I am talking about are not simply 21 21 21 21 etc, but several options. 21 into D3, 21 into throw, 21 into D4, and if you are exceptionally ballsy, you could go for a 21 crossup. The point is to get the chip, to get the opportunity to get a feel on how your opponent likes to play defense, and my personal favorite is you are literally shoving them to the corner.

For example, some block string ideas are things like 21 D3, 212 clone-21 D3, 21 D3, 212-21 grab, etc. The whole idea is to be creative and random while getting chip, meter, inside your opponents head, and closer to the corner.

Be ready to pick up D4 slides off of unexpected 1 in 21 hits, and be ready to confirm a 212 freeze if 2 hits into kombos for max damage.

Now, what you have to be wary of is getting predictable and counter poked. D1 and D3 are both 7 frames, and D4 is eight frames. D1 is negative 14 frames on block, and D3 is negative 8 frames. D4 is 0 on block. I wouldn't ever use D1, but D3 grants 2 frames of advantage on hit with a standing opponent while D4 gives 8. These let you dash in for free, safe pressure.

Watch out for 6 frame pokes or launchers like Sektor's 1. To combat these, you need to instill the fear you will finish the string and possibly kombo. To deal with 6f counterpokes off a blocked D3 or 4, cancel into clone. This will let them know they need to sit there and take it or be frozen.

And for something really dirty, get them to auto pilot block what the expect to be a D4 or D3, and instead F4. Give them the kombo, reset them, and keep on pressuring. Feels good, man.

Throw is also great for getting free damage and getting them off block. It also forces them to move in whatever direction you want them too. Use it, it's good.

All this midscreen pressure really helps my Sub Zero, so I thought I'd share with you all. Thoughts?

 

[Lord Beef]

Ive been workin on this for a bit too. However, I've found it to be a mixed bag. Mostly because I don't like that added threat of getting crossed up while I'm pressuring. That being said, I've never been a 21 pressure guy. Even trying to mix it up, I find myself getting crossed up or blocked/ counter poked. It's just not a risk I want to take for an extra bit of chip in the majority of match ups. At most, ill throw out 2 1 d3 212 clone. Otherwise im finishing the string into clone or im doing 2 2 shenanigans. good shit if you can make it work, though. Me no can haz rush down beast mode. I'm boring lol

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[NRF CharlieMurphy]

The only thing this is... is basically taking advantage of your opponents ignorance to your strings.
If you constantly do this.. they will start poking you, and reversing the pressure.
I've actually stopped doing this and simply just confirm 2,2,4 and 2,1,2/4. Then at a critical point... you can get that 2,1 throw due to hesitation.

It is just smoke and mirrors... but has its place for sure.

 

[Enenra]

Ive been workin on this for a bit too. However, I've found it to be a mixed bag. Mostly because I don't like that added threat of getting crossed up while I'm pressuring. That being said, I've never been a 21 pressure guy. Even trying to mix it up, I find myself getting crossed up or blocked/ counter poked. It's just not a risk I want to take for an extra bit of chip in the majority of match ups. At most, ill throw out 2 1 d3 212 clone. Otherwise im finishing the string into clone or im doing 2 2 shenanigans. good shit if you can make it work, though. Me no can haz rush down beast mode. I'm boring lol

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If that happens I like to pop a clone after 21. A giant middle finger to crossovers.

The only thing this is... is basically taking advantage of your opponents ignorance to your strings.
If you constantly do this.. they will start poking you, and reversing the pressure.
I've actually stopped doing this and simply just confirm 2,2,4 and 2,1,2/4. Then at a critical point... you can get that 2,1 throw due to hesitation.

It is just smoke and mirrors... but has its place for sure.

Yes, you do have to play deviate from this pressure style when they have a faster poke than you.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I don't think you understood. after 2,1... you WILL get poked. You are at 0 and no 6 frame move means you lose.
Again... if your opponent is ignorant to this fact... you'll get away with it. If not... you basically are setting yourself up to get poked out of even 2,1,2 because they are trying to get you in the 2,1.

 

[SunnyD]

I don't think you understood. after 2,1... you WILL get poked. You are at 0 and no 6 frame move means you lose.
Again... if your opponent is ignorant to this fact... you'll get away with it. If not... you basically are setting yourself up to get poked out of even 2,1,2 because they are trying to get you in the 2,1.

I agree. Any decent d1 will hit you out of 21 pressure. If you are fighting someone with shit pokes like Reptile than you wont have this trouble, but then again Reptile can just Elbow Dash you out of any follow up. 212 clone is a much safer, better option. You are pushing you opponent closer to the corner than 21. You are not allowing the opponent to poke back. You are getting a clone out. Sooo many reasons

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I agree. Any decent d1 will hit you out of 21 pressure. If you are fighting someone with shit pokes like Reptile than you wont have this trouble, but then again Reptile can just Elbow Dash you out of any follow up. 212 clone is a much safer, better option. You are pushing you opponent closer to the corner than 21. You are not allowing the opponent to poke back. You are getting a clone out. Sooo many reasons

2,1 doesn't work on reptile anyway.

 

[SunnyD]

2,1 doesn't work on reptile anyway.

Yeah i said that right afterwards

 

[Enenra]

There are other ways to make them afraid to poke after 21 besides D3

I digress. This is more of an "as applicable" sort of thing. Not everyone even has a 6f move.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

There are other ways to make them afraid to poke after 21 besides D3

I digress. This is more of an "as applicable" sort of thing. Not everyone even has a 6f move.

the only thing to make them afraid is doing 2,1,4 ... that is it.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I don't think you understood. after 2,1... you WILL get poked. You are at 0 and no 6 frame move means you lose.
Again... if your opponent is ignorant to this fact... you'll get away with it. If not... you basically are setting yourself up to get poked out of even 2,1,2 because they are trying to get you in the 2,1.

couldn't you... test the waters... so to speak by doing a bit of 21 pressure to see what they will do? If they start poking after 21... couldn't you 21 clone and freeze them? Or would it break from proximity?

IDK I use to do this a lot... been getting away from it after watching Tom's vids and just going with 224 clone/slide .... 212 clone/freeze and tons of B121 into throw, F4 freeze/clone, 212 freeze/clone, D4 212 kinda thing.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

couldn't you... test the waters... so to speak by doing a bit of 21 pressure to see what they will do? If they start poking after 21... couldn't you 21 clone and freeze them? Or would it break from proximity?

IDK I use to do this a lot... been getting away from it after watching Tom's vids and just going with 224 clone/slide .... 212 clone/freeze and tons of B121 into throw, F4 freeze/clone, 212 freeze/clone, D4 212 kinda thing.

2,1 has the cancel advantage... and it happens rather quickly. You just have to *see* the delay to know when to poke.
I like doing the 2,1 stuff in the reverse order you are suggesting. Why not make them assume the full string is coming... so they WILL hesitate? If you do it first... then they have no reason to hesitate.
Not only that... but you'll net MORE damage if you confirm the 2,1 then 2,1,2 freeze BnB.
2,1 d3 or 2,1 d4 or 2,1 2,1 ends up leaving you hitting the 1... and nothing else comes from it. Seems like a shitty situation compared to a BnB.

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

lao will spin this even if you go for the 2,1,2

 

[SunnyD]

Look, 22 is a better string in almost all instances. It can be hit confirmed into 22 freeze, if blocked then 224 clone. You cant jump it, it has ridiculous range, cant be poked, armored, or parried out of. The only thing that 21 does better than 224 is....better damage when linked into combo. by a few percent. not good enough

Imo no reason to use 21 pressure, just do 212 clone. It is very rarely useful.

Im talking neutral game here. Corner wise 212 is the best string you got.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Look, 22 is a better string in almost all instances. It can be hit confirmed into 22 freeze, if blocked then 224 clone. You cant jump it, it has ridiculous range, cant be poked, armored, or parried out of. The only thing that 21 does better than 224 is....better damage when linked into combo. by a few percent. not good enough

Imo no reason to use 21 pressure, just do 212 clone. It is very rarely useful.

you need to preface this by saying "in the neutral game".
2,1,2 is much better in the corner than 2,2 because of the options you receive.
Some characters can also punish the 2,2,4~clone because of the nature of their attacks. Just be aware of that.

 

[SunnyD]

you need to preface this by saying "in the neutral game".
2,1,2 is much better in the corner than 2,2 because of the options you receive.
Some characters can also punish the 2,2,4~clone because of the nature of their attacks. Just be aware of that.

I have never seen anyone punish 224 clone. The frame data says you can, it says you got 17 frames to input an armored dash and combo you, but you be hella ballsy to try it.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

2,1 has the cancel advantage... and it happens rather quickly. You just have to *see* the delay to know when to poke.
I like doing the 2,1 stuff in the reverse order you are suggesting. Why not make them assume the full string is coming... so they WILL hesitate? If you do it first... then they have no reason to hesitate.
Not only that... but you'll net MORE damage if you confirm the 2,1 then 2,1,2 freeze BnB.
2,1 d3 or 2,1 d4 or 2,1 2,1 ends up leaving you hitting the 1... and nothing else comes from it. Seems like a shitty situation compared to a BnB.

what's the "cancel advantage"? Sorry, but I have no idea.

So you do it where you do the full string first, then go to 21 pressure? I don't really see the point of that... b/c that way you are giving up the potential damage of the full string.

Like I said, I don't really do the 21 stuff anymore, but if you do land the 1 you can do D4 slide and still get a knockdown out of it.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I have never seen anyone punish 224 clone. The frame data says you can, it says you got 17 frames to input an armored dash and combo you, but you be hella ballsy to try it.

TKP and TKS by Ermac can catch it.

Smoke can Smoke Bomb it.

Kenshi, while I've never had it happen to me, could probably spirit charge it. Not sure.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

what's the "cancel advantage"? Sorry, but I have no idea.

So you do it where you do the full string first, then go to 21 pressure? I don't really see the point of that... b/c that way you are giving up the potential damage of the full string.

Like I said, I don't really do the 21 stuff anymore, but if you do land the 1 you can do D4 slide and still get a knockdown out of it.

no... what i'm saying is that... you use full strings most of the match. 224 ... 212 214. All of those are safe when cloned (for the most part). Then... when you need that little extra, say a throw. That is when you go 2,1 throw. You've basically told your opponent for the entire match... "I'm going to finish my string and clone, deal with it". They hesitate... you win.
Some players will instinctively see the *pause* and poke too late and your follow up will land... be it another 2 or a d3 or a d4. There is where the mixup lies.
BTW... it takes a *Just Frame* 6frame move to punish 2,1,2 between the 1 and the 2.

 

[Seapeople]

I think the biggest problem is that people still aren't sure how Sub should be played. I mean, the idea of 21 pressure has been around forever but it is still being discussed.
Sub Zero is not a rushdown character. He's completely footsie oriented. Base your strategy around that.

 

[SunnyD]

what's the "cancel advantage"? Sorry, but I have no idea.

Cancel advantage is the frames between when you recover from cancelling a string into a special and when your opponent recovers from the string. For example, 224 clone (on block). 224 has +20 cancel advantage. That means if you end 224 with a special, say, clone, you have a bonus 20 frames where you are safe from punishment. Clone is 37 frames, so 37 - 20 = 17 frames window where you can punish that blockstring.

So you do it where you do the full string first, then go to 21 pressure? I don't really see the point of that... b/c that way you are giving up the potential damage of the full string.

Like I said, I don't really do the 21 stuff anymore, but if you do land the 1 you can do D4 slide and still get a knockdown out of it.

If you are going to do 21 pressure, start with 21 pressure, get them to poke, then 212. The last hit will hit them out of the poke attempt and combo. Thats how i would use it.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

no... what i'm saying is that... you use full strings most of the match. 224 ... 212 214. All of those are safe when cloned (for the most part). Then... when you need that little extra, say a throw. That is when you go 2,1 throw. You've basically told your opponent for the entire match... "I'm going to finish my string and clone, deal with it". They hesitate... you win.
Some players will instinctively see the *pause* and poke too late and your follow up will land... be it another 2 or a d3 or a d4. There is where the mixup lies.
BTW... it takes a *Just Frame* 6frame move to punish 2,1,2 between the 1 and the 2.

Ah, I see... this sounds like a plan!

I'm gonna do this some more in my matches.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

If you are going to do 21 pressure, start with 21 pressure, get them to poke, then 212. The last hit will hit them out of the poke attempt and combo. Thats how i would use it.

they'll still poke you out of 2,1,2... jesus. 6 frame moves can interrupt the 1 and 2. If you train them to constantly see only 2,1 then they'll EASILY pick that apart.

 

[Lord Beef]

If that happens I like to pop a clone after 21. A giant middle finger to crossovers.

Yes, you do have to play deviate from this pressure style when they have a faster poke than you.

Yeah, I gotta agree with Charlie on this one. My question here as far as pressure goes, if you're anticipating a cross up, and 21 clone, you're pressure has stopped and you lose the extra chip anyway. As opposed to just finishing 212 into clone. There's no mixup off 21 other than the mind game of "ive finished the string everytime, its round 2, now you get thrown bitch". You're either going to finish the string, or poke or throw. The opponent only has to use one tool, a 6 frame poke to shut down two of your options. Throw-in the fact that you can easily be read and crossed up or armored through and it just seems to me that by embellishing your 21 pressure with low pokes, that you are actually limiting your own options. I'm not trying to flame you or anything, more power to anyone who can rock the rushdown, it's just my opinion given my play style.

 

[golden_petros]

a lot of talking going on here ... but since I main sub, I can say that sub's pressure game mid screen is really bad ... 21 21 21 21 mix ups are easy to be created theoretically.But, in the game 99% of it is going to be stuffed.And believe me .. when it starts letting u eat a 40%+ combos, u will remember this
in the corner, u can do whatever u want.But mid-screen? ... It will come to an end very soon ...