Discussion NRS Patching - Genuine Balance or Mere Tier Shifting?

General M2Dave said:

Is what I said false, though? Look at Kung Lao, Raiden, and Tanya.

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i agree with all three maybe even tremor. but i don't think that's enough to say it's a pattern. yes tier changes will happen in a patch but to me it seems like it barely happens.

Euphoric said:

SFV is ran by Chun and 6 Vanilla chars

Tekken was a Bob fest

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Thats back then when youre talking about TK6 im talking about now, and you only see chun because youre only watching evo and a lot of japanese players use chun/ryu. You see nash a lot because of infiltration. But balance does not take into the tournament results..... It takes in match up chart and the match up charts for MK is a lot worst than tk or sf

Like is erron black top tier because sonic fox dominates? no

Right now, a lot of top players in sf would agree that there are no 7-3, last time i check there are a lot of 7-3 in mk

Eldriken said:

So many valid points. You have to wonder how these decisions are reached. I'd seriously like to know how Alien's rekkas were passable despite Tanya's having just been nerfed not too long before KP2.

I mean, seriously. How? How does that happen? "Tier shifting" is absolutely the best term to use when discussing NRS' patch history. When tools are taken, they're often given to someone else, which is redundant.

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Honestly, Tier shifting happens because NRS knows it makes money.

Everyone complains about Alien, but guess what, they all play him. Not to knock NRS, but it's clear that they might not have been confident that the characters they release are enticing enough so putting them at the top force anyone who doesn't enjoy losing to pick up the character to at least figure out match ups.

In KP1 it was Tanya, Tremor and Predator in top 5 and now that they charge extra for these relatively older characters they put Alien and Triborg(although very temporarily up there).

Shaking up the rest of the cast felt like a misguided attempt at encouraging players to pick the game up again but ended alienated (pun intended) anyone who'd been a character loyalist or gotten used to the previous match ups ultimately creating a sense of fatigue I've been seeing from a lot of the top level players in a game that isn't all that old.

I'm not saying the should be burnt at the stake for the current top 5 or anything. But I compression of tears is honestly what I think this game needs to survive the Injustice 2 hype till next Evo. Simply shifting tiers will definately force a lot of people to say "Screw this, I'm not re-learning my character again or going back to the lab for hours because Dualist is suddenly top 5 and has a whole new brand of plus of block, armoured, safe, armor breaking mix ups (it's sad that half way through writing that joke I realized there are characters in the game that actually have that).

I hate to use this example as an self confessed NRS fanboy but a character like Nash or Chun Li in SFV are considered the best characters in the game, yet have discernible weaknesses that can be exploited in a calculated way to win sets consistently against them. I'm not saying it has to be easy, but it must be possible (Think slightly nerfed Sonya or Takeda level as S+ Tier, top 2).

Dankster Morgan said:

Also, what would murdering Alien without adjusting Takeda, Sonya, Kano, Cage, etc.. even accomplish? Nothing.

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As a guy who plays Kano, Sonya and Johnny Cage I totally agree. This Scumbag approves this message

I'd rather have a better game than one where my characters just throw broken Sh!t at the wall to see what sticks.

The only way I can see NRS getting balanong right is by changing the gameplay first. The meta is literally who has the best offense, 50/50's, vortex, safety, and meterbuilding while defense is a joke that defensive and zoning variations suffer due to the style of play. The first thing they need to change is the way jump ins and Anti Airs have along with the fact that no characters should have 50/50's that jail into another 50/50. At this point Paulo's vision is MKX being the closest thing to MAHVEL and so far it's looking that way.

TyCarter35 said:

The only way I can see NRS getting balanong right is by changing the gameplay first. The meta is literally who has the best offense, 50/50's, vortex, safety, and meterbuilding while defense is a joke that defensive and zoning variations suffer due to the style of play. The first thing they need to change is the way jump ins and Anti Airs have along with the fact that no characters should have 50/50's that jail into another 50/50. At this point Paulo's vision is MKX being the closest thing to MAHVEL and so far it's looking that way.

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I'd love it if the patch focused first and foremost on QoL changes and then character balance afterwards. QoL changes would help balance the game across the board all at once.

TyCarter35 said:

The only way I can see NRS getting balanong right is by changing the gameplay first. The meta is literally who has the best offense, 50/50's, vortex, safety, and meterbuilding while defense is a joke that defensive and zoning variations suffer due to the style of play. The first thing they need to change is the way jump ins and Anti Airs have along with the fact that no characters should have 50/50's that jail into another 50/50. At this point Paulo's vision is MKX being the closest thing to MAHVEL and so far it's looking that way.

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I think the run is the root of all problems. Explosive up close characters usually have to take risks in order to close space. Imagine if Johnny Cage and Sonya could run in Mortal Kombat 9 or if R. Mika and Zangief could run in Street Fighter V. Bad movement plays a key role in a character's design as some characters are not meant to close space with ease. In Mortal Kombat X, every character runs. Closing space is a non-issue. The characters with the most explosive up close tools close space just as easily as those characters with the least explosive up close tools. While footsies, defense, and zoning are relevant, this system profoundly favors rush down characters.

General M2Dave said:

I think the run is the root of all problems. Explosive up close characters usually have to take risks in order to close space. Imagine if Johnny Cage and Sonya could run in Mortal Kombat 9 or if R. Mika and Zangief could run in Street Fighter V. Bad movement plays a key role in a character's design as some characters are not meant to close space with ease. In Mortal Kombat X, every character runs. Closing space is a non-issue. The characters with the most explosive up close tools close space just as easily as those characters with the least explosive up close tools. While footsies, defense, and zoning are relevant, this system profoundly favors rush down characters.

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So true. If a character can always get in, then don't make them eternally broken upclose.

What do you think of this @General M2Dave

Universal:
1. F3 can be EX'd for a 2% damage increase and immediate pop up directly in front of Tanya.
2. F4 is now special cancellable
3. D1 is -4 on block
4. Air split Dive now has a 15 frame start up and is +5 on block
5. 2U3 is now -2 on block
6. Low drill is now fixed and pops up opponents consistently
7. F43 gap removed
8. Standing 4 is now a mid
Pyromancer :
1. Air fireballs are now an overhead, they do the same damage as ground fireballs, and they now have an increased hitbox.
2. 5% added to her combos.
3. B31 dust jails
4. All fireball have 6 frames removed off of their startup.
5. All fireballs have 3 frames removed off recovery
6. New string: F42 mid, overhead. Fireball explodes with shroud. Gapless
Kobu Jutsu:
1. B12+4 now has less scaling
2. EX Tonfa toss now has a 2% damage increase and scales less in combo
3. Old damage reverted back to her combos + an additional 1%
Dragon Naginata:
1. Staff Stance is -10 on block
2. Staff stance 4 and EX staff stance 4 now jail
3. Staff stance 1 startup decrease
4. B2 hit advantage is now +10
5. B1 startup decreased by 5 frames
6. F42 is now -5 on block

Salad Petresky said:

Right now, a lot of top players in sf would agree that there are no 7-3, last time i check there are a lot of 7-3 in mk

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if you mean in sf4 complete bull but if you mean in sf5 probably true but seeing as how the character difference is so huge.....

omooba said:

i agree with all three maybe even tremor. but i don't think that's enough to say it's a pattern. yes tier changes will happen in a patch but to me it seems like it barely happens.

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How can you not see it?

Former Top Tier at one point of the game reduced to mid tier or worse at another point-

Kobu Tanya
Tempest Lao
TG Raiden
Cyber Kano
Bojutsu Jin
BS Shinnok
Tremor
CSZ (lol)
Cassie
Etc

Then there's characters that were Doodoo Tier who got uber buffed to stupidity like Takeda.

Saying it's wrong or right is one thing, but saying it's never happened is inaccurate.

SaltShaker said:

How can you not see it?

Former Top Tier at one point of the game reduced to mid tier or worse at another point-

Kobu Tanya
Tempest Lao
TG Raiden
Cyber Kano
Bojutsu Jin
BS Shinnok
Tremor
CSZ (lol)
Cassie
Etc

Then there's characters that were Doodoo Tier who got uber buffed to stupidity like Takeda.

Saying it's wrong or right is one thing, but saying it's never happened is inaccurate.

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both takeda and cyber kano had legit problems like infinites all they did was remove those so i didn't count those two. with bojutsu we just thought he was top tier cus he was easy to pick up we didn't know the game as well back then. At least that's what i think. shinnok is still good imo same with cassie. their tiers changed but not drastically
i already conceded to lao, raiden and tanya. might even give you tremor but those 4 aren't enough to say it's a pattern. again tier changes will happen obviously but IMO these 4 aren't enough to say it's a pattern.

omooba said:

both takeda and cyber kano had legit problems like infinites all they did was remove those so i didn't count those two. with bojutsu we just thought he was top tier cus he was easy to pick up we didn't know the game as well back then. At least that's what i think. shinnok is still good imo same with cassie. their tiers changed but not drastically
i already conceded to lao, raiden and tanya. might even give you tremor but those 4 aren't enough to say it's a pattern. again tier changes will happen obviously but IMO these 4 aren't enough to say it's a pattern.

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Cassie is still good, ok. She was much better, but I'll let that one go.

Shinnok being "a solid mid tier" is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that he was Top 2 Broken AutoWin Tier that had 40% of the player base either using him or pocketing him at one point.

Bojutsu was doing over 40% mid screen meterless off safe 50/50s, +5 on block EX Flip, etc. Character received significant nerfs that were needed and dramatically changed his standing.

CSZ was very strong, a Top 5 contender who some said could be the best, and got nerf bombed so hard that people legitimately forget that he is in the game now.

That is on top of the 4 you already accept. If that is not "enough" then nothing will convince you.

SaltShaker said:

Cassie is still good, ok. She was much better, but I'll let that one go.

Shinnok being "a solid mid tier" is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that he was Top 2 Broken AutoWin Tier that had 40% of the player base either using him or pocketing him at one point.

Bojutsu was doing over 40% mid screen meterless off safe 50/50s, +5 on block EX Flip, etc. Character received significant nerfs that were needed and dramatically changed his standing.

CSZ was very strong, a Top 5 contender who some said could be the best, and got nerf bombed so hard that people legitimately forget that he is in the game now.

That is on top of the 4 you already accept. If that is not "enough" then nothing will convince you.

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forgot about szb cus it wasn't a major patch. but actually yeah i think you're right to an extent cus i also forgot about the shit shinnok could do. (which i think was legit problem like the infinites).
so yeah i can see why y'all think it's a trend

SaltShaker said:

Cassie is still good, ok. She was much better, but I'll let that one go.

Shinnok being "a solid mid tier" is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that he was Top 2 Broken AutoWin Tier that had 40% of the player base either using him or pocketing him at one point.

Bojutsu was doing over 40% mid screen meterless off safe 50/50s, +5 on block EX Flip, etc. Character received significant nerfs that were needed and dramatically changed his standing.

CSZ was very strong, a Top 5 contender who some said could be the best, and got nerf bombed so hard that people legitimately forget that he is in the game now.

That is on top of the 4 you already accept. If that is not "enough" then nothing will convince you.

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It's funny that everyone that tried to use auto win bs pre patch got bodied, except for one person....

cR WoundCowboy said:

It's funny that everyone that tried to use auto win bs pre patch got bodied, except for one person....

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Lmaoooo!!! You already know. There was like a 90% Shinnok drop after the nerfs but you held it down before and after.

EdenianWarrior said:

What do you think of this @General M2Dave

Universal:
1. F3 can be EX'd for a 2% damage increase and immediate pop up directly in front of Tanya.
2. F4 is now special cancellable
3. D1 is -4 on block
4. Air split Dive now has a 15 frame start up and is +5 on block
5. 2U3 is now -2 on block
6. Low drill is now fixed and pops up opponents consistently
7. F43 gap removed
8. Standing 4 is now a mid
Pyromancer :
1. Air fireballs are now an overhead, they do the same damage as ground fireballs, and they now have an increased hitbox.
2. 5% added to her combos.
3. B31 dust jails
4. All fireball have 6 frames removed off of their startup.
5. All fireballs have 3 frames removed off recovery
6. New string: F42 mid, overhead. Fireball explodes with shroud. Gapless
Kobu Jutsu:
1. B12+4 now has less scaling
2. EX Tonfa toss now has a 2% damage increase and scales less in combo
3. Old damage reverted back to her combos + an additional 1%
Dragon Naginata:
1. Staff Stance is -10 on block
2. Staff stance 4 and EX staff stance 4 now jail
3. Staff stance 1 startup decrease
4. B2 hit advantage is now +10
5. B1 startup decreased by 5 frames
6. F42 is now -5 on block

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I have not used Tanya for a long time. I like the buffs to zoning. I dislike the buffs to offense.
You want an MB version of f+3 that pop ups immediately? So you want more 50/50 mix ups? Why? I doubt you want a balanced Tanya. You want easy wins. I say the same thing to Tremor players who want b+1 to be an overhead. Enough 50/50 mix up trash gameplay already.

Also, if you would like NRS to take your suggestions seriously, only post changes that are likely to occur. Tanya is most likely not getting any new strings and aerial split is not going to be +5 on block.

Maybe it's weird to say but with the run system, long reaching normals, the abundance of plus frames & armored launchers I feel as though it's never hard to "Get in" on most characters. A struggle in a lot of other fighters.

Sometimes MKX feels like rockem, sockem robots. That and most games armored moves lead to quick burst damage or positioning. Usually in other games their armor moves aren't usually leading to 30+% combos into set ups or a 50/50, or start a vortex.

It's definitely a unique feel though. The good, the bad, and the random.

General M2Dave said:

I have not used Tanya for a long time. I like the buffs to zoning. I dislike the buffs to offense.
You want an MB version of f+3 that pop ups immediately? So you want more 50/50 mix ups? Why? I doubt you want a balanced Tanya. You want easy wins. I say the same thing to Tremor players who want b+1 to be an overhead. Enough 50/50 mix up trash gameplay already.

Also, if you would like NRS to take your suggestions seriously, only post changes that are likely to occur. Tanya is most likely not getting any new strings and aerial split is not going to be +5 on block.

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Universal:
F3 pops the opponent up closer to her
F4 is now special cancellable
D1 is -4 on block
Air split Dive now has a 15 frame start up and is -2 on block
2U3 is now -2 on block
Low drill is now fixed and pops up opponents consistently
F43 gap removed
Standing 4 is now a mid

Pyromancer :
Air fireballs are now an overhead, they do the same damage as ground fireballs, and they now have an increased hitbox.
5% added to her combos.
B31 dust jails
All fireball have 6 frames removed off of their startup.
All fireballs have 3 frames removed off recovery


Kobu Jutsu:
B12+4 now has less scaling
EX Tonfa toss now has a 2% damage increase and scales less in combo
Old damage reverted back to her combos + an additional 1%

Dragon Naginata:
Staff Stance is -10 on block
Staff stance 4 and EX staff stance 4 now jail
Staff stance 1 startup decrease
B2 hit advantage is now +10
B1 startup decreased by 5 frames
F42 is now -5 on block

I'm of the mindset that 30 Kung Laos or Scorions would be a more fun game than 30 Sonyas or Aliens. I know some people are opposite.

I'd like to see the game after a nerfs-only patch. Enough with the buffing. It seems the consensus has the majority of characters in the two tiers below the top six or so. So these characters are overall pretty balanced, right? Why not just slighly bump those six down to join the club and leave the rest alone aside from bugs and whatnot? Instead of juggling too much and potentially just replacing the busted tier with new faces.

ChaosTheory said:

I'm of the mindset that 30 Kung Laos or Scorions would be a more fun game than 30 Sonyas or Aliens. I know some people are opposite.

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I think most people would agree since Lao and Scorpion don't have stupid dumb safe 50/50s

ChaosTheory said:

I'm of the mindset that 30 Kung Laos or Scorions would be a more fun game than 30 Sonyas or Aliens. I know some people are opposite.

I'd like to see the game after a nerfs-only patch. Enough with the buffing. It seems the consensus has the majority of characters in the two tiers below the top six or so. So these characters are overall pretty balanced, right? Why not just slighly bump those six down to join the club and leave the rest alone aside from bugs and whatnot? Instead of juggling too much and potentially just replacing the busted tier with new faces.

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Not true (trust me, we all complained like this about +27 EX hat so no. Any tournament dominated by a single character is boring to watch and does no good for the game).

The thing is most people don't want their character to compete, because without the top 5 in the equation pretty much every character does (bar Goro, maybe Kenshi), people want free wins. a button or tool they can exploit 3 or 4 times a round and win.

People like Tremor, Quan, Lao, Tanya, Liu Kang are perfectly fine now, people are just but hurt that they actually have to use skill and more than one braincell to win.

Goro needs an anti air, Kenshi needs something to contest upclose (coz there is absolutely no way you can keep a character out all round in this game), Raiden needs a good mid, all these things are necessary to actually allow the character to play they're game. Not every character needs to be a dumb 50/50 character although you can keep character like Erron and Kotal as they are so that those that want that can do so, but within the confines of sound fundamental play.

The Janitor said:

Not true (trust me, we all complained like this about +27 EX hat so no. Any tournament dominated by a single character is boring to watch and does no good for the game).

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What's not true? I ask because I agree with the rest of your post. I'm not sure what the disagreement is.

General M2Dave said:

@CrimsonShadow , Street Fighter V has received zero balance patches since its release. Mortal Kombat X has released abundant patches and hot fixes. To use your wording, there are 20 Aliens in top 32 and the top 8 is almost exclusively the same 3 characters (i.e., Mileena, Sonya, and Takeda).

Also, nobody in this thread has an issue with Alien or Quan Chi, or any other character, being mid tier. You have missed the point of my argument. The unbalance arises if hypothetically speaking Alien's tools are removed or normalized and then transferred to a mid tier or high mid tier character.

@RiBBz22 , again, this thread is not about buffs and nerfs.

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Point one you make comments about over-normalizations. I post about Cyber Sub. Objection by m2dave has been overruled by judge RiBBz22

RiBBz22 said:

Point one you make comments about over-normalizations. I post about Cyber Sub. Objection by m2dave has been overruled by judge RiBBz22

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Yes, we know. Cyber Sub Zero has been over-normalized. You only remind us on a daily basis by posting your crying on the status updates page... just as you did about 10 minutes ago as of this writing.