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When to release block and start my own string?

H

haha_dead

Noob
I know it's character specific, but I'm new enough to fighting games that I'd really benefit from general advice. I main KL (but I'm learning Shang, too).
Often my opponent will throw out a string and I'll block it, and of course I'd like to throw out my 112 when I get an opening. But skilled rushdown players eat me for breakfast. I always seem to get thrown, or caught in their next string.

So wondering if it's probable I'm trying to attack at the wrong moment?

I've been reading lots and lots about fighting games and understand about startup-active-recovery frames. I know I want to hit them with a counterattack while they're in their recovery frames.

Aside from using a breaker, (using 2 bars) is there a way to stuff a string, or is my opponent untouchable for the entire duration of his string? (first active frame of first hit, to last active frame of last hit) Are there any moments when he's vulnerable in the middle?

Or should I just not be blocking against rushdown play? Is block/counterattack a useable strategy ?

Thanks guys


Let's spar! PSN: haha_dead
 
NapalmSanctuary

NapalmSanctuary

Noob
The big bad rushdown is currently my most obvious weakness as well. If i remember correctly, Tom Brady said that crossups were generally good answers to rushdowns.
 
MK_Anonymous

MK_Anonymous

Noob
im also getting stuck by rush down by like jade/skarlett/liu/kl and such. i play kabal and often they bait wake up and such, but ya how do you get out of strings? and what does kabal have to help with this, thanks!
 
M

MIA SILENT

Noob
I'm new to fighting games too. MK9 is the first one i'v picked up in years. After blocking a string of hits i usually try and jump the opposite side of my opponent and hit them while i'm coming down (a crossup). I'm still getting the hang of this though cause your reactions have got to be pretty fast and to get a combo out afterwards can be tricky.
 
MK_Anonymous

MK_Anonymous

Noob
ya, just period its tough. kabal really doesnt have many combos, hes amazing, just is hard to pressure without dash cancel.
 
Vulcan Hades

Vulcan Hades

Champion
You're maining KL dude. Just spam that Spin and get it over with. :3


On a more serious note, you should check out the Frame Data Project: http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?4950-MK9-Frame-Data-Project

Frame data can be pretty complicated at first, but for right now all you need to know is that the moves with the least execution frames (start up) are the fastest. So they're the one that gonna have priority. For example: If you attack with a 9 frame normal but your opponent attacks with an 8 frame normal, he's gonna win and hit you first. Get it?

So when someone is rushing you and locking you down with blockstrings, this is usually not the time to try a big flashy combo. What you wanna do is space the opponent out with your fastest attacks. A quick look at Kung Lao's frame data can tell you what your best options are:


Neutral Attacks
FP: 10
BP: 7
FK: 10
BK: 22

Crouching Attacks

d+FP: 7
d+BP: 7 (Uppercut)
d+FK: 9
d+BK: 12

Command Normals

b+FP: 26
f+BP: 22 or 23*
f+FK: 18
b+FK: 11
f+BK: 27
b+BK: 19 (Sweep)

Jumping Attacks (Performed as low as possible)

j.P: 6
j.K: 8

Throws

Neutral: 10
Forward Throw: 10

Special Attacks

Hat Toss (b,f+BP): 21
Enh. Hat Toss (b,f+BP+Block): 25
Ground Hat (d,b+BP): 19
Enh. Ground Hat (d,b+BP+BlocK): 19
Enh. Ground Hat Maximum Hold (d,b+BP+BlocK): 274
Spin (d,f+FP): 6
Enh. Spin (d,f+FP+Block): 9
Dive Kick (j,d+BK): 6
Enh. Dive Kick (j,d+BK+Block): 6

Teleportation

Teleport Neutral, no attacks: 62

While Teleporting

FP: 10
BP: 23
FK: 5

X-ray

X-Ray Attack: 6
Click to expand...
So by looking at KL frame data, we learned that Kung Lao's spin is his fastest move (only 6 execution frames). Even faster than his low jab.

2, D1 and D2 are also decent with 7 frame start up. So that's basically your 4 best options when you're being rushed down like crazy.

You say you'd like to go for your nice 1, 1, 2 combo. But if you look at frame data, you'll notice that standing 1 has 10 execution/start up frames. Which is much slower than 7. So if your opponent keeps attacking you with an 8 frame attack and you keep trying to respond with 1, 1, 2. Then no wonder he's winning everytime. The only way your 1, 1, 2 would win is if his 8 start up has something like -4 advantage on block. In such a case, your 1 would hit 2 frames earlier than his next 8 frame attack (that's now 12 frames because of the -4 recovery).

Hope that helps. :)

btw it also helps to study your opponent's frame data sometimes. For example, if you have trouble vs Johnny Cage or Raiden, look at their BnB combos and favorite block strings. See how much start up or advantage/recovery they have. Then you'll know what's the best way to punish or respond to them.

Unfortunately, we don't have complete frame data yet. We're still missing adv on hit/on block info but some guys here are working hard on it. So keep checking back that thread about frame data.
 
E

evansgambit

Guardian of Outworld
haha_dead said:
I know it's character specific, but I'm new enough to fighting games that I'd really benefit from general advice. I main KL (but I'm learning Shang, too).
Often my opponent will throw out a string and I'll block it, and of course I'd like to throw out my 112 when I get an opening. But skilled rushdown players eat me for breakfast. I always seem to get thrown, or caught in their next string.

So wondering if it's probable I'm trying to attack at the wrong moment?

I've been reading lots and lots about fighting games and understand about startup-active-recovery frames. I know I want to hit them with a counterattack while they're in their recovery frames.

Aside from using a breaker, (using 2 bars) is there a way to stuff a string, or is my opponent untouchable for the entire duration of his string? (first active frame of first hit, to last active frame of last hit) Are there any moments when he's vulnerable in the middle?

Or should I just not be blocking against rushdown play? Is block/counterattack a useable strategy ?

Thanks guys


Let's spar! PSN: haha_dead
Click to expand...
Hmmm, because the strings being used to pressure against you, are safe on block. They will most likely leave your opponent at negative frames. (This is my assumption, until I see the recovery frame data). This will generally allow you to startup your quickest string to counter attack them during their slight recovery time. As their string is safe, they will be able to block your counter string. It's kind of like a taking turns, but that's just for blocking. If your hit, its a different picture, as you'll be in negative frames.

As to when to release block, just comes down to knowing your opponents string - the number of hits. This becomes trickier when your opponent possess a good "variable count mix up," such as scorpion's FP, FP, FP or 1, 1, 1. Where scorpion can either do FP or FP, FP or FP, FP, FP. If scorpion stops the string short at either FP or FP, FP - you've got to react quick enough to release block and start your counter string. Knowing when to release block is just a "guess" You could play it "safe" and block the entire 3 hit string, but scorpion could do 2 hits, stop short, and then restart up another 3 hit string. Hence the "variable count."

I believe there are a strings that don't keep an opponent in complete block stun or termed "jail." Off my rather limited memory, I know Johnny Cage can X-Ray during one of Raiden's block strings. Again, we just need frame data.
 
H

haha_dead

Noob
Vulcan and Evan, awesome breakdowns, very helpful. I'll make a point of using my quicker moves to counter pressure and see what happens :)

Good Sonyas seem to use a quick string a lot that includes both low and overhead, and when i turtle I eat a lot damage... I guess in cases like that i shouldnt just be blocking

Let's spar! PSN: haha_dead
 
N

noothgrush

Noob
wow, the info in here is really helpful. i cant wait till the frame info for sub-zero comes out so i can study it.

the people on here are great!
 
I

Insane j

Mortal
I found that you need to know enemy strigns ! and than u can easly decide when to poke him (lets say with D3 od D4) or jump out. thats how I use it.
for example, for Liu Kang, his strings are usually either B3 1 2 or 2 1 3, if u block full string, usually there is frame space where you can either poke him or jump out.
 
C

chessmaster

Kombatant
my inputs are always delayed or they just stop in the middle of a string. anybody know if this is lag or just me fucking up the inputs?
 
E

eskuAdradit0

"Thanks" button abuser.
chessmaster said:
my inputs are always delayed or they just stop in the middle of a string. anybody know if this is lag or just me fucking up the inputs?
Click to expand...
What do you mean? Jump off to the lab first. Practice there your strings and combos. I mean, sometimes you'll mess up and get negative edge(you do a movement you didn't mean to when connecting strings), but most likely it doesn't matter if you're REALLY quick or slow when doing the input of the string, every combo string has an animation that will not get quicker or slower depending on your fingers' speed.
That is, on just one string, connecting strings does require speed (practice overall). But yeah, as I said, go practice offline and see if you're doing whatever you want to do 100% of the time. If you exactly the same thing online and it doesn't work, then it's probably lag.
 
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