Match-up Discussion Aquaman Matchup Discussion

[Ben Reed]

I haven't played any good Ravens yet in Orlando or Tampa, but based on what I found creating drills in the lab, it seems pretty favorable to Aquaman to me. Seems kinda like Deathstroke to me, you just advance slowly without feeding Raven free Soul Crush hits (don't be a hero, you don't NEED to be to win), get to b1/d2 range, and then you control the match as long as you can keep that spacing. I would say that it's probably like 6-4 Aquaman.

TRY_HARD 's Water Shield tip actually seems VERY helpful for this matchup. You may need a knockdown or frame advantage (easy, blocked Soul Crush!) in order to set it up, but once it's in the lane, Raven can't do shit about it. If you dash too early, she can probably whiff punish it with Soul Crush, but the penalties for holding it and waiting are trivial (barely any more damage absorbing it than blocking it), and the rewards for a successful bait are better than simply blocking (even if you can't get the FTD punish cause you dashed too late, the dash is absolutely free, and you get closer to Raven than if you had blocked it).

Two good reads (or one, if you guessed right at match start and got her in a combo or otherwise knocked her down) and you're in her face, and like AM vs. Deathstroke, you ruin her day on the inside. Standard bully tactics and f2 1+3 ender midscreen will create the exact same shitty situation for her, over and over again until you win. Just pay attention and read your opponent's wakeup, and this matchup seems pretty clean for Aquaman.

 

[supernumian]

If the matchup against Raven is 6-4 Aquaman, I'm a really bad Aquaman.
There's no way that I win a fight against this character. She always keep the distance and spam the Soul Crush...a lot! And finally reach me and I eat a full combo.

Same for Black Adam and Killer Frost.
Killer Frost totally own me with her slide and B.Adam dive kick/cross-up me ftw.

Any suggestion?
I think that I need to study those MU.

 

[Ben Reed]

supernumian

You're not necessarily a BAD Aquaman for having bad feelings about the Raven matchup. You probably just don't have a lot of experience fighting GOOD players who play characters with GOOD full-screen tools against Aquaman (Deathstroke, Raven, Cyborg). If you just accept that you're not gonna get in on Raven INSTANTLY (unless you guess right at round start), I don't think it's that hard.

Some easy stuff you can do in the lab is to program Raven dummy to spam Soul Crush as fast as she can and see how long it takes you to get in if you just block and dash it repeatedly. This is slow but safe. She's only -11 on block, but combined with the 9f startup time on her next Soul Crush, even if she buffers the next Soul Crush frame-perfect, you should have enough time to get a free forward dash and block. Don't worry about how long it takes to get in, just focus all your energy on getting free forward movement WITHOUT getting hit by Soul Crush.

The same principle applies to the Deathstroke matchup. You will HAVE to take some chip to get in on him and win the match. This is a PERFECTLY acceptable sacrifice because you have WAY more tools once you're inside Aquaman's b1 range than Deathstroke or Raven do at that range. (You have to bait Deathstroke's wakeup Sword Flip, but that's full combo punishable on block.) The only trick is BLOCKING their moves as you inch your way in and not getting HIT for being impatient, which is exactly what Raven and Deathstroke want.

Think about it this way if you're still wary. Say you have to block 5 zoning moves on your way in to rush down Raven or Deathstroke. Each of those moves does about 1-2% chip on block. So you take 5-10% damage in chip before you finally get in. Inside close range, your weakest full meterless combo into f2 1+3 (d1~DB2, b12~scoop, f2 1+3) does 27-28% damage (depending on whether or not you missed the 1st hit of scoop). You have done almost TRIPLE the damage you took getting in for NO meter and put Raven/Deathstroke in a situation where they either have to sit and block or do a risky wakeup to get you out of their face.

You might guess wrong in these situations the first times you encounter them, but as you get more confident in your knowledge of the individual player AND their character, you'll start making better guesses in these situations, and you'll be able to murder people. And if you get knocked out after doing some damage, as long as you have the life lead, THAT'S OKAY. Just take it easy and repeat the process. Don't get hit (or try to get hit as FEW times as possible), and you win.

 

[testyourpatience]

soul crush is 13 startup and -20 on block.

 

[Jaiyson]

Ok I had some matches today against my friends deathstroke..he is pretty good..his mixups are crazy... one thing he does is after a knockdown he goes for the f3 or that low string that deathstroke has.. f3 beats all my wake up options. pretty much have to guess right after a knock down and then he is at advantage from the f3 and good distance away if the low string if blocked.. I need to know what best to combat deathstroke after aquaman is knockdown by him...

 

[supernumian]

supernumian

You're not necessarily a BAD Aquaman for having bad feelings about the Raven matchup. You probably just don't have a lot of experience fighting GOOD players who play characters with GOOD full-screen tools against Aquaman (Deathstroke, Raven, Cyborg). If you just accept that you're not gonna get in on Raven INSTANTLY (unless you guess right at round start), I don't think it's that hard.

Some easy stuff you can do in the lab is to program Raven dummy to spam Soul Crush as fast as she can and see how long it takes you to get in if you just block and dash it repeatedly. This is slow but safe. She's only -11 on block, but combined with the 9f startup time on her next Soul Crush, even if she buffers the next Soul Crush frame-perfect, you should have enough time to get a free forward dash and block. Don't worry about how long it takes to get in, just focus all your energy on getting free forward movement WITHOUT getting hit by Soul Crush.

The same principle applies to the Deathstroke matchup. You will HAVE to take some chip to get in on him and win the match. This is a PERFECTLY acceptable sacrifice because you have WAY more tools once you're inside Aquaman's b1 range than Deathstroke or Raven do at that range. (You have to bait Deathstroke's wakeup Sword Flip, but that's full combo punishable on block.) The only trick is BLOCKING their moves as you inch your way in and not getting HIT for being impatient, which is exactly what Raven and Deathstroke want.

Think about it this way if you're still wary. Say you have to block 5 zoning moves on your way in to rush down Raven or Deathstroke. Each of those moves does about 1-2% chip on block. So you take 5-10% damage in chip before you finally get in. Inside close range, your weakest full meterless combo into f2 1+3 (d1~DB2, b12~scoop, f2 1+3) does 27-28% damage (depending on whether or not you missed the 1st hit of scoop). You have done almost TRIPLE the damage you took getting in for NO meter and put Raven/Deathstroke in a situation where they either have to sit and block or do a risky wakeup to get you out of their face.

You might guess wrong in these situations the first times you encounter them, but as you get more confident in your knowledge of the individual player AND their character, you'll start making better guesses in these situations, and you'll be able to murder people. And if you get knocked out after doing some damage, as long as you have the life lead, THAT'S OKAY. Just take it easy and repeat the process. Don't get hit (or try to get hit as FEW times as possible), and you win.

Thanks for sharing your experience!
I decided to train hard with that match up and the other that give me troubles (Killer Frost and Black Adam).
I hope to became a better Aquaman player.

 

[Sami]

Two good reads (or one, if you guessed right at match start and got her in a combo or otherwise knocked her down) and you're in her face, and like AM vs. Deathstroke, you ruin her day on the inside. Standard bully tactics and f2 1+3 ender midscreen will create the exact same shitty situation for her, over and over again until you win. Just pay attention and read your opponent's wakeup, and this matchup seems pretty clean for Aquaman.

A couple of things:

1) Raven has a 6f d1 which can combo into grab, so be careful with that pressure
2) Raven can put Aquaman in the same shitty game by finishing combos with f22u1. Grants Raven a free cross-up attempt which Aquaman has no wake-up options against (other than super). Raven can even do a j3 into full combo if it hits which also negates Aquaman's trait. Raven doesn't even need to make a read on this, as the follow-ups to j3 are safe on block . And of course, this looping combo puts Aquaman at the same position as before. Guess right or eat another 40+%. This is balanced by Raven having zero close-range pressure should Aquaman guess correct.

In my opinion, this match-up is very even, with neither character having guaranteed ways of dominating the other.

And now I scuttle back to the Raven forums...

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Okay we should talk about the scorpion matchup here. Aquaman does well (on paper I would say he actually has advantage against scorpion) but it is still a really really hard match. I have two videos of this matchup that I played with ozzyguitar, one that i won, and one that I got bodied in. In the one that I get bodied, I do want to apologize for my saltiness. I had been going even with him before that, guessing right all the time, and then that set came and i started guessing wrong and I got really flustered, started missing my just frame tridents, and just started yelling honestly. Now that we have that out of the way, here are the two sets.
This was last weekend.

And this was last night

The first thing to note is Ozzys adaptation. he plays the matchup completely differently in video number two. In set number one he is afraid of Aquamans d2 and strong footsies, and also honestly does not know much about scorpion. In video two he abuses scorpions garbage a lot more. Ji3, teleport, mb teleport, etc. This is obviously the type of scorpion that we will be dealing with. Notice how I am stuck sitting there in the middle of the screen waiting for scorpion to press a button. And once I decided I was going to actually try to play the game, such as later in the set, I get tagged by ex teleport all day. I also missed a lot of executional stuff such as just frame ground tridents, and even cancelling into trident rush. Honestly, the way you are going to end up playing this match is sitting there, guessing right, and trying to tag him with an aa, and hoping he runs out of meter, then trying to get your hit in. If you can manage to get a health lead, run away, and the water shield stuff will work, but this life lead is honestly really difficult to get when the scorpion player is abusing ex teleport, jumping 3, and his other stuff. Let's get some discussion here. I'm hoping somebody has found something? Looks like Tom is in the same boat as me on this one, so he won't be giving us the answer.

 

[testyourpatience]

first of all, great aquaman!
secondly, scorpion should be getting some serious fixes somewhere in the near future, so it will it be possible for not only aquaman to fight him but the rest of the cast as well.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

first of all, great aquaman!
secondly, scorpion should be getting some serious fixes somewhere in the near future, so it will it be possible for not only aquaman to fight him but the rest of the cast as well.

Thanks. As far as him getting banned, nerfed, etc. thats great..... but if we can find a way to stop him now that would be even better. We can't just say "Oh he is being fixed, no problem, just wait it out" because if that is our mentality then we will never level up. I was up all night thinking about this matchup and what I can do. I am going to try to get some matches in again to try stuff out tomorrow, etc. Don't stop trying. Keep practicing, testing, do everything you can.

 

[testyourpatience]

Thanks. As far as him getting banned, nerfed, etc. thats great..... but if we can find a way to stop him now that would be even better. We can't just say "Oh he is being fixed, no problem, just wait it out" because if that is our mentality then we will never level up. I was up all night thinking about this matchup and what I can do. I am going to try to get some matches in again to try stuff out tomorrow, etc. Don't stop trying. Keep practicing, testing, do everything you can.

you already said it yourself, you can't do anything against scorpion. you're either holding down the whole match waiting for teleport and getting tagged by hellfires, or you're actually trying to play the game/avoid hellfires and then you get tagged by teleport/spear. people aren't losing to scorpion because he's a super great character, they're losing because he's super broken in a back to block game, and i really wouldn't encourage people to try and level up against him like he's a legitimate character. he's not getting nerfed, he's getting fixed. that's like trying to come up with a way to deal with cyborg's block infinite. i'm not advocating laziness, i'm saying why would you even waste your time when he's going to get fixed anyways?

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

you already said it yourself, you can't do anything against scorpion. you're either holding down the whole match waiting for teleport and getting tagged by hellfires, or you're actually trying to play the game/avoid hellfires and then you get tagged by teleport/spear. people aren't losing to scorpion because he's a super great character, they're losing because he's super broken in a back to block game, and i really wouldn't encourage people to try and level up against him like he's a legitimate character. he's not getting nerfed, he's getting fixed. that's like trying to come up with a way to deal with cyborg's block infinite. i'm not advocating laziness, i'm saying why would you even waste your time when he's going to get fixed anyways?

Because he isn't going to be fixed for CEO or Evo and even though I am not going, I am sure other Aquaman players are that want the best chance of winning. So I am going to support them. In fact i want to support this whole community. This isn't like a block infinite, there are ways to escape, it is just hard. We just have to work on it. It will never be easy, it will probably always feel stupid, but we really have three options:
1. Lose and not care
2. Quit
3. Get better at fighting it.

I choose option 3. I hope as many people as possible do the same.

 

[Peckapowa]

i'm not gonna give a number but aquaman outzones or atleast goes even with superman in the zoning game, heat zap can be ducked, and lasers can be jumped on reaction and air lasers can be jumped and atleast chipped out, sometimes punishes and blocked lasers have to be meterburned to be safe...

if superman does anything you can slowly chip him to death if you react flawlessly, and if you read a heatzap or ground laser the risk reward on damage is in your favor... also you have water shield. Aquaman has a better mixup game and his uppercut is a fast solid counter to air dash mixups and mindless dash ups into f23... and you can trait out of some of his combos... he is more mobile and has great footsies but it doesnt smell bad too me

also, aquaman outzones raven AT FULL screen, doesnt mean much.... demon mode teles can be uppercut at all times... so she cant open you up at all in demon modes..

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

i'm not gonna give a number but aquaman outzones or atleast goes even with superman in the zoning game, heat zap can be ducked, and lasers can be jumped on reaction and air lasers can be jumped and atleast chipped out, sometimes punishes and blocked lasers have to be meterburned to be safe...

if superman does anything you can slowly chip him to death if you react flawlessly, and if you read a heatzap or ground laser the risk reward on damage is in your favor... also you have water shield. Aquaman has a better mixup game and his uppercut is a fast solid counter to air dash mixups and mindless dash ups into f23... and you can trait out of some of his combos... he is more mobile and has great footsies but it doesnt smell bad too me

also, aquaman outzones raven AT FULL screen, doesnt mean much.... demon mode teles can be uppercut at all times...

I'll give some numbers. I believe superman is even. Superman needs meter to maintain his optimal spacing in the long range game, but he stops one of aquamans main things, trident rush. It just turns into a footsies game that is really easy. Raven.... I still need experience but I would say even.

 

[Peckapowa]

I'll give some numbers. I believe superman is even. Superman needs meter to maintain his optimal spacing in the long range game, but he stops one of aquamans main things, trident rush. It just turns into a footsies game that is really easy. Raven.... I still need experience but I would say even.

superman cant chip aqua at full screen... he has hard to deal with air dash mixups to throw you off but if you react properly he will rarely do chip, and if he fucks around you will do more chip slash punish harder... f23 once again is fucking cheap... especially considering his movement

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

superman cant chip aqua at full screen... he has hard to deal with air dash mixups to throw you off but if you react properly he will rarely do chip, and if he fucks around you will do more chip slash punish harder... f23 once again is fucking cheap... especially considering his movement

He can chip aquaman if he has meter.

 

[Peckapowa]

He can chip aquaman if he has meter.

not if u jump back and react

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

not if u jump back and react

This is true. Although personally I would rather take it because I want him to use his meter to chip me. I can make that health up.

 

[Peckapowa]

This is true. Although personally I would rather take it because I want him to use his meter to chip me. I can make that health up.

yeah... especially if you have the lifelead ...also if hes on the ground its hard to distiguish between heat zap and regular laser if you are doing that... so if hes ground id block.. im merely trying to say you can outchip him to death

 

[ShanxterX]

yeah... especially if you have the lifelead ...also if hes on the ground its hard to distiguish between heat zap and regular laser if you are doing that... so if hes ground id block.. im merely trying to say you can outchip him to death

If i am not mistaken, you can punish zap and ground laser on read with trident. just bait them and punish

 

[Peckapowa]

If i am not mistaken, you can punish zap and ground laser on read with trident. just bait them and punish

yeah, but that opens you up for jump laser... if you play it entirely safe he'll never hit you... obviously that read is in your favor.

 

[Zenrot]

Because he isn't going to be fixed for CEO or Evo and even though I am not going, I am sure other Aquaman players are that want the best chance of winning. So I am going to support them. In fact i want to support this whole community. This isn't like a block infinite, there are ways to escape, it is just hard. We just have to work on it. It will never be easy, it will probably always feel stupid, but we really have three options:
1. Lose and not care
2. Quit
3. Get better at fighting it.

I choose option 3. I hope as many people as possible do the same.

I really hate the Scorps matchup with Aquaman. On paper Aquaman apparently wins it (?) but I straight pick Superman to fight Scorpion.

The best I manage to do with Aquaman against Scorpion is neutral jump everything you see and fall with j3, and don't be afraid to d2. If you whiff who cares, you got trait.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I really hate the Scorps matchup with Aquaman. On paper Aquaman apparently wins it (?) but I straight pick Superman to fight Scorpion.

The best I manage to do with Aquaman against Scorpion is neutral jump everything you see and fall with j3, and don't be afraid to d2. If you whiff who cares, you got trait.

Jumping gets you mb teleported. Bad bad bad idea

 

[Zenrot]

Jumping gets you mb teleported. Bad bad bad idea

Not if you jump when he ports, you fall on his head. It's not a good idea but then again neither is fighting against Scorpion at all.

 

[JavierDavila]

How do you guys punish Black Adam's dive kick ?