Strategy More... Venom...! - Venom, properties, and strategy [OUTDATED]

[GGA Max]

|[(DW+(DT-LZ)-LZ)] * DD|

By order of operations, it goes
DT-LZ = X
DW + X = Y
Y - LZ = Z
Z*DD

What does that have to do with it?

In short your formula should be
|[((LZ- DW)+(DT-LZ))] * DD|

Because inside the () after you do the initial subtractions you will get positive numbers. And then you will add them just like you wanted to.

 

[Doombawkz]

What does that have to do with it?

In short your formula should be
|[((LZ- DW)+(DT-LZ))] * DD|

Because inside the () after you do the initial subtractions you will get positive numbers. And then you will add them just like you wanted to.

Except that would yield the results that are causing these confusions.
The original equation works fine and meets the results.

 

[regulas]

Except that would yield the results that are causing these confusions.
The original equation works fine and meets the results.

Well what I am wondering now is what the new numbers are for levels 2 and three.

 

[GGA Max]

This is getting redundant. If higher numbers in the VLE don't necessarily mean better efficiency then you're system is flawed.

 

[big_aug]

This is getting redundant. If higher numbers in the VLE don't necessarily mean better efficiency then you're system is flawed.

Let me settle it.

MORE VENOM!

 

[Doombawkz]

Well what I am wondering now is what the new numbers are for levels 2 and three.

We don't know yet. They will probably yield much better worth amounts though, with the lower cooldown making the lesser debuffs less of a factor

 

[Kibaris]

VLE = [(DV-LZ)]*VD - |[(DW+(DT-LZ)-LZ)] * DD|

Hello, nice work there but I think your equations may be flawed. The part which calculates the positive effects(buffs) of each Venom is correct but the part that calculates the negative effects(debuffs) of each Venom is not.It should be (LZ-DT) and not (DT-LZ) simply because Damage Taken is a debuff and not a buff. The way you calculate it right now is like it is a buff.

Also Venom lvl2 total effectiveness includes Venom lvl1 buffs as well, and Venom lvl3 total effectiveness includes Venom lvl1 and Venom lvl2 buffs. This way we take into consideration the total buffs of each Venom and not only the marginal ones.To explain this in a simple way: in order to cause Venom lvl2 debuffs you must first go to Venom lvl1, exploit its buffs for 8 seconds, then go to lvl2, exploit its buffs for 7 seconds and then if u decide not to go to lvl3 Venom, Venom lvl2 debuffs will be caused. Of course the same applies for Venom lvl3.

So with that in mind here is the total effectiveness of all 3 Venoms for patch 1.0.3:
TVE = Total Venom Effectiveness

• TVE1 = 0.11 or 11%

• TVE2 = 0.255 or 25.5%

• TVE3 = -0.75% or -75%

Of course there is one more thing; the fact that Venoms gives special armor properties to Bane's special attacks. This parameter is very hard to be calculated and inserted into the equation because it varies from matchup to matchup(it can be calculated but it requires a lot of work).

 

[Doombawkz]

Hello, nice work there but I think your equations may be flawed. The part which calculates the positive effects(buffs) of each Venom is correct but the part that calculates the negative effects(debuffs) of each Venom is not.It should be (LZ-DT) and not (DT-LZ) simply because Damage Taken is a debuff and not a buff. The way you calculate it right now is like it is a buff.

Also Venom lvl2 total effectiveness includes Venom lvl1 buffs as well, and Venom lvl3 total effectiveness includes Venom lvl1 and Venom lvl2 buffs. This way we take into consideration the total buffs of each Venom and not only the marginal ones.To explain this in a simple way: in order to cause Venom lvl2 debuffs you must first go to Venom lvl1, exploit its buffs for 8 seconds, then go to lvl2, exploit its buffs for 7 seconds and then if u decide not to go to lvl3 Venom, Venom lvl2 debuffs will be caused. Of course the same applies for Venom lvl3.

So with that in mind here is the total effectiveness of all 3 Venoms for patch 1.0.3:
TVE = Total Venom Effectiveness

• TVE1 = 0.11 or 11%

• TVE2 = 0.255 or 25.5%

• TVE3 = -0.75% or -75%

Of course there is one more thing; the fact that Venoms gives special armor properties to Bane's special attacks. This parameter is very hard to be calculated and inserted into the equation because it varies from matchup to matchup(it can be calculated but it requires a lot of work).

Fair enough.
Also 1.0.3 is the newest one? If so, the numbers will be skewed a bit unless you are also adding in the new venom debuff numbers which are much lower.

The reason each is done separately is because that way if anyone wanted to calc what it was like going from 1-2-3, they could see the raw numbers of each and would simply have to add the VLE of the one below it to the one above it.

 

[Kibaris]

Fair enough.
Also 1.0.3 is the newest one? If so, the numbers will be skewed a bit unless you are also adding in the new venom debuff numbers which are much lower.

The reason each is done separately is because that way if anyone wanted to calc what it was like going from 1-2-3, they could see the raw numbers of each and would simply have to add the VLE of the one below it to the one above it.

Yes you calculated the marginal numbers I mentioned that in my first post. I calculated the new durations but with your stats(reduced dmg taken and reduced dmg done). Did they change those as well? I will test and repost the new values then. It was nice of you to post such things so people can see the huge penalties that Bane takes for using his trait and I hope NRS could see those as well...

 

[Doombawkz]

Yes you calculated the marginal numbers I mentioned that in my first post. I calculated the new durations but with your stats(reduced dmg taken and reduced dmg done). Did they change those as well? I will test and repost the new values then. It was nice of you to post such things so people can see the huge penalties that Bane takes for using his trait and I hope NRS could see those as well...

Yeah, the new numbers (to my knowledge) are 1.03 for level 1 (unchanged), 1.07 for level 2 (down from 1.11), and level 3 is kind of a toss up atm but its definitely lowered. Looks to be about... 1.25 or so.

Plainly, level 1 is unchanged so for the most part the numbers should be the same, where as level 2 looks to essentially be 1.5 now, and 3 looks to be about 2.5.

 

[Doombawkz]

Dog With A Beer has found the numbers, as shown in the bottom quote.

Ran some numbers for the venom debuff. I figured out the damage increase on each debuff level for 8 different Super Moves and then averaged the results. I'm sure it's not an exact science since some people's moves had sections that did not appear to benefit as much from the debuff at certain stages as others (Doomsday's multiple 1% punches showed no increase until level 3) but the numbers seem pretty in line with what I've been experiencing in the game. Let me know if these don't seem right or if you want what I've recorded to run them yourself.

Averages
LVL 1 debuff - 103% dmg taken
LVL 2 debuff - 110% dmg taken
LVL 3 debuff - 127% dmg taken

So I don't suppose you guys wanna help me jot down some good stuff for an updated venom guide?
We could make it the first of many parts to the "Ultimate Bane Superguide", and all due credit would be given.

 

[GGA Max]

Dog With A Beer has found the numbers, as shown in the bottom quote.



So I don't suppose you guys wanna help me jot down some good stuff for an updated venom guide?
We could make it the first of many parts to the "Ultimate Bane Superguide", and all due credit would be given.

I'll help, that is if there is no beef between us.

 

[Kibaris]

Dog With A Beer has found the numbers, as shown in the bottom quote.



So I don't suppose you guys wanna help me jot down some good stuff for an updated venom guide?
We could make it the first of many parts to the "Ultimate Bane Superguide", and all due credit would be given.

So are those numbers correct? The "Damage Done Penalty" remains the same so I will re-calculate my values in a sec.

 

[Kibaris]

So the Total Venom Effectiveness values for the patch 1.0.3 with the correct data are:

• TVE1 = 0.11 or 11%

• TVE2 = 0.3 or 30% (up from 25.5%)

• TVE3 = -0,27 or -27% (up from -75%)

 

[Doombawkz]

I'll help, that is if there is no beef between us.

More beef than a sacred cow.

 

[GGA Max]

More beef than a sacred cow.

Well w.e but plz include that the efficiency of going to level 3 should increase in the case of doing lvl 1 and 2 for their venomed durations. Since you don't have their recovery time, only the venom 3 recovery.

 

[UltraDavid]

I haven't seen anyone talk about the antiair and abare properties of venom so far. Down-back+2 and back-toward+2 are foolproof antiairs with venom on, pick between them based on the opponent character's angle. Actually I just thought of this, but I should try antiair armored command grab too, I bet that works with proper timing.

And if you have venom, you can take advantage even where you shouldn't. Say your previous string into back-toward+2 is blocked. You can't be punished by most characters, but you are negative on block. If you and the opponent both try to press a button after, the opponent will hit you first. Unless you have armor and do another back-toward+2 or command grab.

 

[Doombawkz]

I haven't seen anyone talk about the antiair and abare properties of venom so far. Down-back+2 and back-toward+2 are foolproof antiairs with venom on, pick between them based on the opponent character's angle. Actually I just thought of this, but I should try antiair armored command grab too, I bet that works with proper timing.

And if you have venom, you can take advantage even where you shouldn't. Say your previous string into back-toward+2 is blocked. You can't be punished by most characters, but you are negative on block. If you and the opponent both try to press a button after, the opponent will hit you first. Unless you have armor and do another back-toward+2 or command grab.

Actually, if you mean ring toss by anti-air command grab, it doesn't benefit from venom armor. Its fast and good for floaty jumps like ours, but most people just go around it because of its angle. Standing 2 is the better flat anti-air, and venom uppercut is probably our best AA options because of its armor.

b.f.2 (double punch) actually has a downside on its low range (only goes to Bane's head and a tiny bit over) while venom uppercut's (d.b.2) jump arc is a bit shallow than what would be desired. A truly good anti-air is his f.2d which has immense reach in front and above him, but it doesn't get armor until level 3 venom.

Honestly using b.f.2 over and over can be read, backdashed, and punished if you go for it too often. It does have its uses though in its overhead box and low on-block disadvantage, but going for armored links doesn't always work since some characters can hit us twice before the move even makes it way out.

If you are the ultradavid I think you are, hi and its nice to indirectly meet you.

 

[UltraDavid]

No, I meant antiair with the ground command grab, I don't know the name, half circle back toward + 3. You can throw people as they're landing so today I tried using venomed command grab as an antiair and it works great from certain ranges.

As for pressing too hard with back toward 2, like anything it can be overdone. It's just nice that Bane has better options to continue pressure when he's venomed.

Ps yep I'm that UltraDavid. Nice to meet you too.

 

[Hiryu02]

Nice, first Hakan, now Bane. It wouldn't be a Secret Technology Grappler without UltraDavid posting something about it.

No oiled normal cancels though. But hey armored grabs that beat both attacks and throws aint too bad.

 

[Doombawkz]

No, I meant antiair with the ground command grab, I don't know the name, half circle back toward + 3. You can throw people as they're landing so today I tried using venomed command grab as an antiair and it works great from certain ranges.

As for pressing too hard with back toward 2, like anything it can be overdone. It's just nice that Bane has better options to continue pressure when he's venomed.

Ps yep I'm that UltraDavid. Nice to meet you too.

*nerdgasm* but the regular body press command grab isn't much on range either honestly, it's kinda gimmicky.

 

[UltraDavid]

*nerdgasm* but the regular body press command grab isn't much on range either honestly, it's kinda gimmicky.

It's not gimmicky, it's a huge part of Bane's game. And the range is fine when dealing with people jumping at you from the front, it even catches things like max range Catwoman jump 2.

 

[Doombawkz]

It's not gimmicky, it's a huge part of Bane's game. And the range is fine when dealing with people jumping at you from the front, it even catches things like max range Catwoman jump 2.

That's the thing though, we can f.2d people in front of us for all the damages. It's people crossing us up that's the problem.