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Patch 1.03 and 2in1 input errors (technical analysis)

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
Your right. But before the patch you would not be able to combo into interactable by just using 1 and 2 buttons, if I'm correct. You had to use the interactable button.

i REALLY hope they change it back to that,
or if even adjust the sensitivity
 

webreg

Apprentice
THIS IS HUGE!
Here is the update I did to my original post. I call bullshit. Now I understand why I mess this up so often. Decide for yourselves.



Each press of the green buttons is considered to have happened in sequence and will execute the CatWoman combo. Be advised that this illustration shows the minimum time needed or rather the fastest possible speed to do this combo. There can be multiple empty frames between the inputs. If you do it faster though then you get the blue example which results in the 2in1 input and the interactable being used.

There is a big, huge difference whether you are doing the string inside a combo within range of an opponent or not. The first example shows that doing 2in1 outside of a combo is difficult to do. You have to be fast enough and lucky enough to press both buttons within 1 frame. You will not be able to do this reliably. It is also important to understand that if there is no interactable nearby then the "2" is swallowed by the engine. The combo won't happen. So if you do the blue example without any interactable nearby then you will only get "1". You were too fast for the game.

If there is an opponent in range then the whole thing changes dramatically. If you press the "2" in "1,1,2" within 99.9 ms or three frames then you will get a guaranteed interactable. If you press it within 99.9 ms and 133.3 ms then there is a chance you get the interactable. Your normal combo is only guaranteed if you delay for at least 133.3 ms. You essentially have to delay your input for at least 4 frames to avoid the usage of the interactable during a combo.
Ninj
STORMS
GamerBlake90
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
webreg

Question regarding the "ouside of a combo" and "inside of a combo" definitions.

As aquaman, a common BNB I use is b12 xx db2, b12 xx db1, d3. After the b12 xx db, i will sometimes get interact instead of b12. I know its from me doing a slide input and if I do it slow enough it is fine. The question is, does this combo follow the "outside of a combo" rules (1 frame) or "inside of a combo" rules (4 frames)?

I had this problem before 1.03 so i presume it is the outside of a combo rules.

P.S. Thanks for breaking this down. I've been hearing reports but it but confirmation is always nice.
 

Sasuga

Kombatant
This is kinda messed up for combos like 2,1,2. If you do the 1,2 before the 2nd move cancels into the 3rd, you will get interactible. If you input 1,2 or 2,1 fast enough sequentially after any move that is interactible cancellable, you will get the interactible. (on hit)

Please fix this!
 

webreg

Apprentice
As aquaman, a common BNB I use is b12 xx db2, b12 xx db1, d3. After the b12 xx db, i will sometimes get interact instead of b12. I know its from me doing a slide input and if I do it slow enough it is fine. The question is, does this combo follow the "outside of a combo" rules (1 frame) or "inside of a combo" rules (4 frames)?
Good question. My tests were done with simple normal strings like 1,1,2 or 3,3,1,2. For non-combo testing I simply used 1,2 and 2,1. In your example I would assume that it is considered outside because it is not a "dial a combo" situation. I would imagine that the 4 frame window only applies to buffer situations where the interactable acts as a cancel. That being said maybe even the "b" in "b12" could possibly change the properties. I will take a look at situations like this in the next test run. I want to understand how the buffering works in this game.
 

webreg

Apprentice
webreg

As aquaman, a common BNB I use is b12 xx db2, b12 xx db1, d3. After the b12 xx db, i will sometimes get interact instead of b12. I know its from me doing a slide input and if I do it slow enough it is fine. The question is, does this combo follow the "outside of a combo" rules (1 frame) or "inside of a combo" rules (4 frames)?
Ok, I did about three hours of testing with Aquaman. Well, your stuff didn't take three hours to test but I found an input "bug" while doing so and needed to make sure that I did my stuff right. I needed to redesign my testing because of this "bug" and that's why it took longer but more about this on a later date and back to your questions:

I did look specifically at the db2,b12 string. There are six things that can go wrong with this string.
  • Pressing the "b" from "b12" in the same frame as "1". This results in the "b" being ignored and you'll do just "1".
  • Letting go of "b" from "b12" before pressing 1. This results in the "b" being ignored and you'll do just "1".
  • Pressing "1" from "b12" while still being in recovery from "db2". You'll get "b2" instead of "b12".
  • Pressing "1" from "b12" while still being in recovery from "db2" and keeping it pressed while pressing 2. You'll get the interactable.
  • Pressing "1" and "2" from "b12" within the same frame. You'll get the interactable.
  • Pressing "12" of "b12" too late and dropping the combo.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
Ok, I did about three hours of testing with Aquaman. Well, your stuff didn't take three hours to test but I found an input "bug" while doing so and needed to make sure that I did my stuff right. I needed to redesign my testing because of this "bug" and that's why it took longer but more about this on a later date and back to your questions:

I did look specifically at the db2,b12 string. There are six things that can go wrong with this string.
  • Pressing the "b" from "b12" in the same frame as "1". This results in the "b" being ignored and you'll do just "1".
  • Letting go of "b" from "b12" before pressing 1. This results in the "b" being ignored and you'll do just "1".
  • Pressing "1" from "b12" while still being in recovery from "db2". You'll get "b2" instead of "b12".
  • Pressing "1" from "b12" while still being in recovery from "db2" and keeping it pressed while pressing 2. You'll get the interactable.
  • Pressing "1" and "2" from "b12" within the same frame. You'll get the interactable.
  • Pressing "12" of "b12" too late and dropping the combo.
Very interesting, thanks. I think bullet point #4 is what causes me to get interact. Even though I disable negative edge I still have a habit to hold down buttons when doing strings. Although if I didn't i'd get B2 anyways which would probably be worse, so /shrug.

Bullet point #1 sounds like a possible input bug. At least its something that is consistent with the input system so it probably won't effect gameplay as much as the MK9 input bug.
 

webreg

Apprentice
GGA Dizzy
Actually bullet point 4 is the "bug" I was referring to. If you press a button and keep it pressed, then the associated hit will be executed (or not when still in recovery) but the button press is not consumed by the action. It stays in the buffer for approx. 3 seconds as long as you keep that button pressed and will be used if you press another button that combines into any 2in1.

Sounds confusing but you can see it for yourself. It is very easy to replicate: Press 1 and keep it pressed which will execute an attack. Walk around some and then press 2 (still holding 1) while being in front of an interactable. The approx. 3 second window to do this is started at the initial button press of 1. Negative edge has no effect on this. I put "bug" in quotations because this may be an intentional design. It is strange however. Why is a pressed down button that already executed an action still considered valid for another action seconds later? You can also do "b12" and keep "2" pressed. Then later press 1 again while being in front of an interactable. It makes no sense.
 

webreg

Apprentice
webregOh wow, 3 seconds is really long.
Could be two. I didn't want to go into details yet because I didn't have the chance to analyze it properly. The thing is that this doesn't work inside buffered strings but it works in links like the "db2 -> b12" discussed previously. In any case it is more than enough to mess up some combos and jump ins I imagine. It should be only "j1,1+2" but instead "j1(hold),2" works as well if timed badly.

Do you play with a stick? I think this isn't really a problem for pad players because you usually only use your thumb to press buttons and if you don't slide or multipress, then there is almost no chance this could happen to you. If you use multiple fingers on a stick then this might be a problem though.

I don't think this is that huge of a deal because you need the combination of somewhat sloppy inputs, specific combos, being in front of an interactable, probably playing on a stick and a habit of keeping buttons pressed. However, this also works with stance change, throw and all other 2in1 inputs.
 

Relaxedstate

PTH|RM Relaxedstate
I just want a tweet or something that shows NRS is aware of this... the 1+2 sensitivity is killing all my inputs :X Happened to me at UFGT many times as 112 is one of Cyborgs best block strings
 

The Borax Kid

Apprentice
I just want a tweet or something that shows NRS is aware of this... the 1+2 sensitivity is killing all my inputs :X Happened to me at UFGT many times as 112 is one of Cyborgs best block strings
From what I have seen, colt is the batsignal here for confirmation on whether NRS is aware of something like the 1 + 2 issue. To summarize:

Why is a pressed down button that already executed an action still considered valid for another action seconds later? You can also do "b12" and keep "2" pressed. Then later press 1 again while being in front of an interactable. It makes no sense.
 

TurboTaco

Mexican street vendor
This happened to me very frequently on my hitbox while messing with Batgirl combos

This can also happen with the other inputs made for sticks like 1+3, 1+2+3, 2+3

In hawkgirls corner combos using B1~WE3 multiple times you can get a B3 cancel after the B1 if you do the input too fast and end up wasting 2 bars of meter and dropping the combo
Hey that keeps happening to me when trying to learn that combo! Is there anyone to stop doing it?
 
Your right. But before the patch you would not be able to combo into interactable by just using 1 and 2 buttons, if I'm correct. You had to use the interactable button.
In past, was possible to do an combo to interactable using 2+4 if you don't want to use the interactable button.

I just want that back. Is not fair that you are on bottom Justice Leage stage at the right, hitting your opponent and the teletransporter triggers during a combo and send you back.
 

webreg

Apprentice
The problem is that there is probably no simple solution to the issue.
I'm sure NRS is very much aware of the "timing issue" but what can they do?
  • Make an option to disable the 2in1 = Only for pad players, stick players need that feature
  • Adjust the "sensitivity" = Less chance for accidental 2in1 but higher chance of messing up the 2in1 if you want it
  • Make 2in1 inputs completely rebindable = High effort for NRS if even possible. Might need engine adjustments and that's a nogo.
Since this isn't random and can be avoided reliably with the right timing I regard this issue as being annoying but not game breaking.
 

Boodendorf

Bird woman!
I didn't read the first post completely, but there is also a special issue when using 1+3 or the interactable button while in flight mode with hawkgirl, it doesn't work everytime and it's pretty random.
 

n-megabytes

Mortal
I am messing up my combos big time with catwoman and killer frost cause of this stupid 2in1 input thing that was introduced in patch 1.03... As a pad player, I personally think it's the dumbest thing that has happened to this great game to date!
 

drywall

Noob
I found a similar issue regarding bounce cancels using input shortcuts that didn't come up before the recent patch. Use an attack that can be bounce canceled and then press DB/DF 2+3 and the bounce cancel will come out. Doing DB/DF stance switch does not cause this to happen. The accidental bounce cancel usually happens when I input 2 and then 3 too quickly. Maybe an option to disable button input shortcuts for interactables and bounce cancels would fix this?
 

Enigma642

Apprentice
I have this problem with Harley quin 112 play doctor combo ender. It cancels into intractable every time. Strangely though, I can execute a 112 naked combo just fine. It only happens when the 112 is initiated as part of an already started combo.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
colt that nothing was changed with this with dlc 3 patch,
could we see this addressed in dlc 4 patch/later or are we stuck with how it is now?
even if the 2 in 1 was left in, even an adjust in the sensitivity so it wouldnt mess up strings as much be a great help.
thanks.
 

-LD50-

In a relationship with Killer Frost
this shit needs to get fixed. i fuck up my vortex on kf all the fucking time because of it.

why does it even need a shortcut? its easy on stick and pad to just hit the interactable button