Stop overrating MK9's Balance, Injustice is better

[RWDY Nori]

You should never really accept something really broken though, that's just poor judgment.

Inb4 Lrn2adaptswitchmainsinteractables

I think over time, the word "broken" has lost it's meaning. Broken should stand for game BREAKING. Kabal was not game breaking in UMK3 nor MK9. He was just really fucking good. There is a big difference. Sentinel/Magneto/Storm/Cable were not broken from MvC2. I might get shit for this but they weren't. Why? There were chars on the roster that could beat them. It was all about matchups and execution. Most chars could not compete in the game, but for 11 years straight, you saw multiple sets of teams in tournaments over the years. Ogres/Mishimas in Tekken Tag Tournament (the original), were undisputed top tier, not broken. They had far superior tools but nothing game breaking.

Glitches are IMO game breaking. They have no place in games, period. Now, IMO, infinites have no place in games either. I am aware MvC2/UMvC3 have them and people love them, and that's great, but my personal opinion, that's broken.

Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo Akuma, literally an unbeatable char. He was perfect in every single way. No char could compete w/him, most of the cast was a 9-1 matchup automatically. It was prison rape trying to fight him, you just have to sit back and accept it, then ponder how you got yourself into this situation. And cry as well. Soul Calibur 3, there were about 4 chars that could win a tournament and pretty much nobody else. Xianghua was one of them and had a literally game breaking move that wasn't fixed until arcade (even though console came first, yes I know this is confusing) plus a glitch where you can stop certain moves by cancelling them in a way the game did not design for. Broken


It just really annoys me to no end when a top tier char wins, people cry right away "derrr that's broken!" and they just didn't adapt to the char and got their ass kicked. I play Bane and Superman. One takes a massive amount of skill to win and one is pretty brain dead, but nothing actually broken about anything so far minus Cyborg's infinite (IMO)

 

[ApertureBlack]

Why not a median? Why cant we learn what to complain about and what we should adapt to. It shouldn't be an either/or fallacy. Some things in the game need fixed... other things are not a problem despite the complaints. :16Bit

Well most of the complaints involving spam are just casuals whining, ignore those.

Stuff like major chip damage(Looking at you most projectiles/Nightwing), incredibly safe strings (GL&Superman), and certain characters being flawed in design/execution(Bane/Lobo) are what need to be addressed for the serious scene.

 

[trufenix]

Well most of the complaints involving spam are just casuals whining, ignore those.

Stuff like major chip damage(Looking at you most projectiles/Nightwing), incredibly safe strings (GL&Superman), and certain characters being flawed in design/execution(Bane/Lobo) are what need to be addressed for the serious scene.

Superman is the only character that needs to be looked at at this stage. f+2,3 xx breath is the only thing far and away abusable in the game right now.

 

[ApertureBlack]

Superman is the only character that needs to be looked at at this stage. f+2,3 xx breath is the only thing far and away abusable in the game right now.

In my opinion, F2,3, breath/Frosts Slide/Aquamans Trait are the main "Overly Powerful" issues right now
In contrast Bane & Venom Debuff/Sinestros trait disappearing alot/Lobos high execution low damage/Jokers Useless trait are the main "Underpowered" issues.

 

[trufenix]

In my opinion, F2,3, breath/Frosts Slide/Aquamans Trait are the main "Overly Powerful" issues right now
In contrast Bane & Venom Debuff/Sinestros trait disappearing alot/Lobos high execution low damage/Jokers Useless trait are the main "Underpowered" issues.

Whats OP about Aquaman's trait or KF's slide? Neither of them is on par with Superman.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Whats OP about Aquaman's trait or KF's slide? Neither of them is on par with Superman.

Yes. Yes it is. If people are going to say a simple thing like F23 Breath is OP, then many things are OP including those

 

[trufenix]

Yes. Yes it is. If people are going to say a simple thing like F23 Breath is OP, then many things are OP including those

Explain? I'm actually asking here. As far as I can tell, you take f+2,3 away from superman, he still has an arsenal of good shit, zoning and pressure wise. You take away Aquaman's trait, he can do nothing about blown zoning except pray for a wake up. And KF, really? You want to kill her only safe approach tool so zoners can have ANOTHER positive matchup.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Whats OP about Aquaman's trait or KF's slide? Neither of them is on par with Superman.

Aquaman's trait recovers too quickly. It should be used once per life bar.

 

[trufenix]

Aquaman's trait recovers too quickly. It should be used once per life bar.

Why though? What match up is Aquaman's trait blowing up? Tell me the unfair part.

Edit: BA, Batman, and Superman all have WAY better traits, and they seem to charge as fast if not faster. Why should Aquaman lose his?

 

[Raynex]

Breath is +1. Everyone needs to calm down and practice interrupting that string, or improve their spacing.

I played Maxter at a Road to Evo event and his spacing was so good I was rarely even able to hit his block with F23. The string is linear and non-threatening, there is no mix-up once you block it. It's infuriating how everyone just throws their hands up and calls it derpy when in actuality IT HAS WEAKNESSES. A bunch of characters can D1 or D2 in between this "loop". (Aquaman D2, Flash D2 and D3, Catwoman D1, GL B1, apparently Batman stand 1 as well). Didn't Johnny Cage have +3 from F3? Didn't Kabal have dumb frame data with dash cancels? I can't for the life of me understand why everyone is up in arms about one move being +1. Is it really that ridiculous to have a move that allows for a small amount of advantageous pressure?

Every single tournament match I've watched that involved Superman in top 8 (even the recent one with Chris G / CDJr in GFs) is evidence that no one knows how to fight him. I'm in the Superman boards everyday and not once this week has a player come in and posted a question about how to overcome some of his tools.

I see player after player fall to Superman because they don't know the match-up. They let DOZENS of heat visions go unpunished. They let his 38 frame heat zap start-up and recover without ever trying to punish it (yes you can punish it). They let him airdash for free without ever attempting to challenge it in the air (he cannot attack until his airdash is complete, it is linear, you can stuff it with neutral / back / forward jump anything). If everyone stopped complaining and tried to understand the character, you'd learn his 50/50s are subpar. You'd learn his D2 loses to 85% of the moves in this game (it loses to all j3s, for example) so jumping in more against him is actually a very good idea. Rushing him down then, if applicable with your character, actually works well. You'd learn that ground heat vision can be jumped EASILY and for full combos, or backdashed at full screen if you're too lazy to fucking hit up. Air heat vision is arguably even easier to avoid (full screen jump it, midscreen block dash and punish, close range block & punish or air-to-air j.whatever on a read).

Superman is a strong, well-rounded character but he doesn't need to be nerfed. Everyone in this game has weaknesses, even Superman *gasp*. Put time into learning how to beat the character. Come visit the Superman boards and we'll be glad to assist you! I'm convinced very few are doing it right, top players included.

 

[RWDY Nori]

People confuse easiest char to use w/best char. This game is still brand new, people are using Superman cause overall he's pretty simple and very rewarding. That does not mean top players using him now are not in the lab working on the chars they actually want to main. When money is involved, people do what they have to to win and people are confusing that w/saying Superman is OP or any other nonsense I'm reading. He's not. Nobody is in this game, just actually play it and give it time. Game has been out barely a month and still nobody truly understands it

 

[CCVengeance]

Aquaman's trait recovers too quickly. It should be used once per life bar.

okay,please stop.

 

[THTB]

Didn't Johnny Cage have +3 from F3?

No. It was 0.

And unless you can reliably dash out of the second f23, the mixup is whether or not he will wait for your d1/d2 and f23 whiff punish that or just do another one since you're blocking, or go into other stuff to further take advantage.

 

[RWDY Nori]

No. It was 0.

And unless you can reliably dash out of the second f23, the mixup is whether or not he will wait for your d1/d2 and f23 whiff punish that or just do another one since you're blocking, or go into other stuff to further take advantage.

It's still not as bad as Kabal's dash cancelling in MK9 and many many other games had chars w/great mixups as well. You don't (not saying you) neutralize a char just cause you can't figure him/her out in a month

 

[CCVengeance]

Breath is +1. Everyone needs to calm down and practice interrupting that string, or improve their spacing.

I played Maxter at a Road to Evo event and his spacing was so good I was rarely even able to hit his block with F23. The string is linear and non-threatening, there is no mix-up once you block it. It's infuriating how everyone just throws their hands up and calls it derpy when in actuality IT HAS WEAKNESSES. A bunch of characters can D1 or D2 in between this "loop". (Aquaman D2, Flash D2 and D3, Catwoman D1, GL B1, apparently Batman stand 1 as well). Didn't Johnny Cage have +3 from F3? Didn't Kabal have dumb frame data with dash cancels? I can't for the life of me understand why everyone is up in arms about one move being +1. Is it really that ridiculous to have a move that allows for a small amount of advantageous pressure?

Every single tournament match I've watched that involved Superman in top 8 (even the recent one with Chris G / CDJr in GFs) is evidence that no one knows how to fight him. I'm in the Superman boards everyday and not once this week has a player come in and posted a question about how to overcome some of his tools.

I see player after player fall to Superman because they don't know the match-up. They let DOZENS of heat visions go unpunished. They let his 38 frame heat zap start-up and recover without ever trying to punish it (yes you can punish it). They let him airdash for free without ever attempting to challenge it in the air (he cannot attack until his airdash is complete, it is linear, you can stuff it with neutral / back / forward jump anything). If everyone stopped complaining and tried to understand the character, you'd learn his 50/50s are subpar. You'd learn his D2 loses to 85% of the moves in this game (it loses to all j3s, for example) so jumping in more against him is actually a very good idea. Rushing him down then, if applicable with your character, actually works well. You'd learn that ground heat vision can be jumped EASILY and for full combos, or backdashed at full screen if you're too lazy to fucking hit up. Air heat vision is arguably even easier to avoid (full screen jump it, midscreen block dash and punish, close range block & punish or air-to-air j.whatever on a read).

Superman is a strong, well-rounded character but he doesn't need to be nerfed. Everyone in this game has weaknesses, even Superman *gasp*. Put time into learning how to beat the character. Come visit the Superman boards and we'll be glad to assist you! I'm convinced very few are doing it right, top players included.

Make a thread and put this in the OP.People need to understand this.Make it in the main Forums page so people cant miss it.

 

[Raynex]

No. It was 0.

And unless you can reliably dash out of the second f23, the mixup is whether or not he will wait for your d1/d2 and f23 whiff punish that or just do another one since you're blocking, or go into other stuff to further take advantage.

Thanks for the correction. You're exactly right; with a correct read you can escape the pressure. If you teach him to stop mashing F2 after a blocked Breath by using smart interrupts, he will eventually just stand there in anticipation of them (and you're out of his pressure for free). So if you make a read you're out, and if he makes a read that you'll block you take negligible chip damage and he's at +1. The 'other stuff' is non-threatening and easy to block. His overheads are slow, +1 isn't enough to dash forward and mix-up, and B3/F3 will miss unless he walks forward.

Also, some characters can't be whiff punished with F23 even if Superman waits after a blocked breath. Catwoman, for example, can D1 interrupt attempt and still block before Superman punishes her, because it takes a few frames for F2 to close the gap and hit her body.

 

[ApocaLips]

Breath is +1. Everyone needs to calm down and practice interrupting that string, or improve their spacing.

I played Maxter at a Road to Evo event and his spacing was so good I was rarely even able to hit his block with F23. The string is linear and non-threatening, there is no mix-up once you block it. It's infuriating how everyone just throws their hands up and calls it derpy when in actuality IT HAS WEAKNESSES. A bunch of characters can D1 or D2 in between this "loop". (Aquaman D2, Flash D2 and D3, Catwoman D1, GL B1, apparently Batman stand 1 as well). Didn't Johnny Cage have +3 from F3? Didn't Kabal have dumb frame data with dash cancels? I can't for the life of me understand why everyone is up in arms about one move being +1. Is it really that ridiculous to have a move that allows for a small amount of advantageous pressure?

Every single tournament match I've watched that involved Superman in top 8 (even the recent one with Chris G / CDJr in GFs) is evidence that no one knows how to fight him. I'm in the Superman boards everyday and not once this week has a player come in and posted a question about how to overcome some of his tools.

I see player after player fall to Superman because they don't know the match-up. They let DOZENS of heat visions go unpunished. They let his 38 frame heat zap start-up and recover without ever trying to punish it (yes you can punish it). They let him airdash for free without ever attempting to challenge it in the air (he cannot attack until his airdash is complete, it is linear, you can stuff it with neutral / back / forward jump anything). If everyone stopped complaining and tried to understand the character, you'd learn his 50/50s are subpar. You'd learn his D2 loses to 85% of the moves in this game (it loses to all j3s, for example) so jumping in more against him is actually a very good idea. Rushing him down then, if applicable with your character, actually works well. You'd learn that ground heat vision can be jumped EASILY and for full combos, or backdashed at full screen if you're too lazy to fucking hit up. Air heat vision is arguably even easier to avoid (full screen jump it, midscreen block dash and punish, close range block & punish or air-to-air j.whatever on a read).

Superman is a strong, well-rounded character but he doesn't need to be nerfed. Everyone in this game has weaknesses, even Superman *gasp*. Put time into learning how to beat the character. Come visit the Superman boards and we'll be glad to assist you! I'm convinced very few are doing it right, top players included.

I personally hope they leave it in so that I can keep blowing f23 up with KF's ex parry. It's pretty nice being able to both punish Superman's ranged game and shut down his rushdown.

This community has a serious problem with looking at particular tools in a vacuum and saying they're too powerful/shouldn't exist. Tier placings, character strength, and strategies are ALWAYS relative - you can't tell if it's too good without directly comparing it to everything else available in the game.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Breath is +1. Everyone needs to calm down and practice interrupting that string, or improve their spacing.

I played Maxter at a Road to Evo event and his spacing was so good I was rarely even able to hit his block with F23. The string is linear and non-threatening, there is no mix-up once you block it. It's infuriating how everyone just throws their hands up and calls it derpy when in actuality IT HAS WEAKNESSES. A bunch of characters can D1 or D2 in between this "loop". (Aquaman D2, Flash D2 and D3, Catwoman D1, GL B1, apparently Batman stand 1 as well). Didn't Johnny Cage have +3 from F3? Didn't Kabal have dumb frame data with dash cancels? I can't for the life of me understand why everyone is up in arms about one move being +1. Is it really that ridiculous to have a move that allows for a small amount of advantageous pressure?

Having a mixup doesnt mean having an overhead/low mixup, being +1 on block with a quick mid advancing move in itself creates a fuck load of mixups. The opponent CANT backdash a repetition, or jump another one, so their options are to either do a 6f normal, or armour.

If they wanna D1 they risk being baited and comboed for it. The risk reward in this mixup is seriously skewed in Supermans favour. Its basically the same as Cage having some1 in the corner and repeating F33B3 and then baiting D1s for full combos, but midscreen/anywhere.

 

[Saffa]

I'm not crying for nerfs but I find it hilarious how whenever someone is one here commenting how Superman is fine and needs no nerfs, that person inevitably has a Superman Avatar.

 

[Sasarix]

Superman's fine and he does not need any nerfs nor does anyone else.

The Microsoft fans should be used to this next line... #dealwithit

 

[TheTHCGamer]

Why are we even discussing which game is better or has the better overrall character balance when in terms of fighting life Injustice is just a baby. We dont know shit yet especially with how this game with turn out depending on new tech being found out and balance patches which will continue to evolve the game. I really do hope no players arent saying that MK is more balanced than Injustice because that makes no sense to say that about a game thats been out what a month. Who knows when all is said and done this game could have the same balance as MK currently does but to make assumptions so early in this games life makes no damn sense at all.

I got an idea lets spend some quality time playing this game before we touch on the subject of which game has better character balance. I will say this from a personal stand point i am having more fun playing Injustice a month into its life then i did with MK in the same span of time. Lets enjoy the game right now and lets not worry about which game is better besides its okay to be able to enjoy more than one fighting game.

 

[MorbidAltruism]

Superman's fine and he does not need any nerfs nor does anyone else.

The Microsoft fans should be used to this next line... #dealwithit

I don't necessarily claim to be very good at the game... but Superman is looking to be the best in the game. Possibly Kawbah tier. I am not saying that he needs nerfed... I am saying he will get nerfed. Too many people are complaining about him. I don't know what happened to all of the Deathstroke complainers... I guess they gave up?:16Bit

 

[Sasarix]

I don't necessarily claim to be very good at the game... but Superman is looking to be the best in the game. Possibly Kawbah tier. I am not saying that he needs nerfed... I am saying he will get nerfed. Too many people are complaining about him. I don't know what happened to all of the Deathstroke complainers... I guess they gave up?:16Bit

They are to busy complaining about Doomsday right now so Deathstroke is catching a break

 

[Raynex]

Having a mixup doesnt mean having an overhead/low mixup, being +1 on block with a quick mid advancing move in itself creates a fuck load of mixups. The opponent CANT backdash a repetition, or jump another one, so their options are to either do a 6f normal, or armour.

If they wanna D1 they risk being baited and comboed for it. The risk reward in this mixup is seriously skewed in Supermans favour. Its basically the same as Cage having some1 in the corner and repeating F33B3 and then baiting D1s for full combos, but midscreen/anywhere.

This post just goes to show, the research hasn't been done. Green Arrow can backdash it, Black Adam can backdash it, there are likely a few others who can as well. Of course certain characters have a more difficult time escaping it, welcome to nuanced and diverse match-ups!

What's wrong the the options you listed? You said it yourself, you can armor it or interrupt it with normals. By the way, it doesn't have to be 6F. Let me use an example to illustrate the benefits of knowing what you're talking about:

Flash's D2 is definitely not 6F, it's slower. Yet for some strange reason it with beat Superman's F2 (made 7f by the +1 post-Breath). So how could that work? How could a move that is slower than 7f beat a move that starts in 7f? It's the same reason Aquaman's D2 wins without question. F2's weakness is that it loses to moves that lower the opponent's hurtbox. Frame advantage doesn't affect this situation too much; a move that causes an opponent's body / limb to shrink in size, and is fast enough, can beat F2 anyways.

Another example of this. GL's B1 is 9f, Superman's F2 is 8f. Regardless of how you time F2, it will always lose to B1 head to head. With minor advantage or disadvantage or even standing still at neutral. It's just the way those two moves interact.

What I'm saying is, a lot of characters have options but people are so preoccupied with the proverbial "its broken waaahhhh" to realize it. Also, what "fuckload" of mix-ups are you talking about? I either F2 or I don't, that's the only frame trap he has. That's ONE OPTION. Stop exaggerating.

 

[MorbidAltruism]

Why are we even discussing which game is better or has the better overrall character balance when in terms of fighting life Injustice is just a baby. We dont know shit yet especially with how this game with turn out depending on new tech being found out and balance patches which will continue to evolve the game. I really do hope no players are saying that MK is more balanced than Injustice because that makes no sense to say that about a game thats been out what a month. Who knows when all is said and done this game could have the same balance as MK currently does but to make assumptions so early in this games life makes no damn sense at all.

I got an idea lets spend some quality time playing this game before we touch on the subject of which game has better character balance. I will say this from a personal stand point i am having more fun playing Injustice a month into its life then i did with MK in the same span of time. Lets enjoy the game right now and lets not worry about which game is better besides its okay to be able to enjoy more than one fighting game.

Because REO made the thread? Just a guess. Personally I think balance needs to be taken with a game by game basis. We shouldn't compare Injustice to MK/Tekken/SF/KOF/VF/SC/SG. It is its own IP. We need to respect that and assess the game multiple times as it evolves...:16Bit