Dealing With Superman

[TakeAChance]

Btw, I didn't think of this before, but what about an armored move? I heard grundy can walking corpse through this pressure (except if supes has his trait on, obviously). Anybody tried with mb b3/ mb f3?

I am pretty sure you can MB out of it in the corner. I am at work right now so I can't test again for sure.

 

[Boodendorf]

MB3 only gets its armor after a few frames, not immediately

After 8 frames if I'm correct, I'm not sure if supes' f23 can hit you before this after a superbreath. What would be possible to do when your back is in the corner:
MB f3/b3, backdash.
the armor will absorb the first hit of f23, the backdash SHOULD avoid the second hit. I'm not sure if superman can empty cancel
Or if your f3/b3 is fast enough to hit Supes' head between f2 and 3 then just release it for a free 30% combo.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I feel like both of those statement are really downplaying the difficulty of this for Ares.

First off, a teleport is 39 frames long, so on a ground laser a teleport doesn't necesarilly mean a punish even if it's a really good read. Also, technically you should be able to blow up a heat zap, even on reaction, but it seems like that move has some kind of auto correct where depending on when you teleported he'll just turn around and zap you in the face

And second, having to play entirely based on reads sucks.
The read on a ground laser is fairly difficult and the air laser is easier to makes reads on, but it's also easy as hell to bait. All he has to do is jump and not laser and you're eating a full combo punish. It's basically a 50/50 unless the Superman is super predictable and if he baits it he gets a full combo starting with and jump attack while if you make the right read you're getting a crappy air juggle because Supes recovers the second his feet touch the ground(I could be wrong about this now that I think about it - I haven't specifically tested it, but experience tells me that you get blown up if you try to time it as he's on the ground. So the risk reward isn't even in your favor.

As far as his d1, I'm not convinced about that one either. I'm open to the fact that it's just hard and my execution is bad, but I don't think it's been established that's it's something that's possible or reasonable to do consistently and tbh I'm not even convinced that landing it relies on Ares timing as opposed to it just being Supes making a mistake. I keep trying to use it in matches, but I'd really like to see someone show me that it can be used effectively or at least give a really solid explanation of how/when it has to be timed to not whiff because I'm almost certain that it's not just a matter of doing d1 on the first frame out of block stun and you get blown up if you do it wrong.



Apologies to all non-Ares players about turning this thread into an Ares match up discussion. I know Superman is hard for you guys too. Let's all vent and brainstorm together

You can also chuck your axe on jump aways.

Not saying it is all unicorns and rainbows...... these are just the options.
Regarding the teleport... if he's still in the air... i just NJ1... seems to have stupid priority over most air attacks ... and it is also 5 frames.

Ares has to play to the patterns of the Superman. Which blows.
However, most characters do too.

 

[4x4lo8o]

Btw, I didn't think of this before, but what about an armored move? I heard grundy can walking corpse through this pressure (except if supes has his trait on, obviously). Anybody tried with mb b3/ mb f3?

In theory you might be able to armor b3, but I'm not sure. The armor has start up frames. If it is possible, it's almost a just frame and I've never been able to do it despite multiple attempts. Also, b3 is slow and there's a chance that f23 will hit twice and knock you out of armor before it connects. Plus there's probably ways to blow it up with trait...
More testing should definitely be done to at least find out if it's possible though

 

[Boodendorf]

In theory you might be able to armor b3, but I'm not sure. The armor has start up frames. If it is possible, it's almost a just frame and I've never been able to do it despite multiple attempts. Also, b3 is slow and there's a chance that f23 will hit twice and knock you out of armor before it connects. Plus there's probably ways to blow it up with trait...
More testing should definitely be done to at least find out if it's possible though

I edited my post, it takes about 8 frames to get the armor on a b3/f3 if I'm not wrong.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Mb b3 works to get out of supermans loop but if your b3 is to slow you might get hit from supermans 3.

Well I should've read the above posts. Maybe the guy I was playing last night wasnt doing the loop perfectly but he seemed to be doing pretty well and I still got out. Someone should figure out how much start up the armor has.

 

[4x4lo8o]

I edited my post, it takes about 8 frames to get the armor on a b3/f3 if I'm not wrong.

Well then, if it's actually 8 frames, it shouldn't be possibly if Superman executes perfectly. Also, the second hit of f23 is 19 frame startup, which means in 27 frames he's hitting you a second time. b3 only has one hit of armor, right? That means a lot of b3's are going to get stuffed, even with meter. Ouch

Characters with armored specials might fair better

Ares can also toss out his standing 1 (5 frames).

You can also chuck your axe on jump aways.

Not saying it is all unicorns and rainbows...... these are just the options.
Regarding the teleport... if he's still in the air... i just NJ1... seems to have stupid priority over most air attacks ... and it is also 5 frames.

Ares has to play to the patterns of the Superman. Which blows.
However, most characters do too.

I'm confused. Standing 1? 5 frames?
I'm not sure what you mean about the nj1 either. You mean if he baits the teleport? I think I usually get punished while teleport is in recovery frames. Maybe it's harder to punish teleport than I think and I'm just pressing buttons when it happens, the 19 frame recovery on teleport seems huge

Axe is... I dunno. It's really slow moving across the screen, in addition to its 20 something frame start up. Superman is usually throwing stuff out constantly and anything he happens to be using is likely to stuff axe. Also, Superman can actually completely jump over axe, although it's hard. It might actually be possible for him to laser on reaction to axe and stuff it. It'd probably be hard. Axe is an option if you read a jump w/out a laser though.

I just can't even figure out what I'm supposed to be doing, or trying to do. It'd be one thing if Superman won the zoning battle but once you got in things were even or something like that, but right now it feels like Superman just wins really hard all across the board. At times I feel like this is the equivalent of the Kenshi-Kitana match up, but it seems like I can't express how difficult this match up is without being told that Ares can just teleport every laser and d1~full combo into 100% when he does f23~breathe. I'm trying and it doesn't work!
Anyway, I'm just salty. I don't want to give up yet. Any Superman players or anyone else who wants to try to grind this shit out with me add me on xbl - i 4x4lo8o i

 

[Boodendorf]

Well then, if it's actually 8 frames, it shouldn't be possibly if Superman executes perfectly. Also, the second hit of f23 is 19 frame startup, which means in 27 frames he's hitting you a second time. b3 only has one hit of armor, right? That means a lot of b3's are going to get stuffed, even with meter. Ouch

Characters with armored specials might fair better

mb f3 might work better then. They're usually pretty fast.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I made a mistake in my previous post.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

Ares can teleport on a read for all lasers.....
he can d1 the f2,3~breathe loop (tight but its possible).

F2,3~breathe is just horrible for most of the cast. If they wan't to keep it at plus frames... i'd suggest making the pushback to the point where Supes can't hit you with another f2.

Most of the cast can't really deal with f2,3~breathe jump (air dash back/forward), let alone constant f2,3~breathe or even worse... f2,trait f2,3 breathe.

Considering you won't be using your armor against him much... pushblock is ideally the thing to get him off. Problem... is that now he can just run away and chip you. Right now, you can't miss a SINGLE punish. You basically need to be on your "S" game.

I can say that everyone DOES have a move that will catch him backdashing out of the string, when he tries to bait a whiff punish.

So with Grundy... if I read a back dash... I use f1,3 which will reach him, but you have to do it on a read, you can't react.
I'm assuming everyone has at least one lunging attack that will reach, at the very least, you can jump at him.

In my exp jumping at me is kinda iffy. I've air grabbed on reaction as an anti air after a back dash..some other times it trades...YOLO I guess.




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[NRF CharlieMurphy]

In my exp jumping at me is kinda iffy. I've air grabbed on reaction as an anti air after a back dash..some other times it trades...YOLO I guess.




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I agree man

Superman dictates most of his matches.

Again i'm tossing out options... not an end all be all.

 

[JaredL]

Well, at least he ain't Kabal.

 

[SLy]

Catwoman can negate his laser game with high evades..But mid screen is where she falls short unless she gets a knockdown.. I think she fair's off pretty well against him.

 

[JaredL]

Hmm, thinking of armored specials, can Ares not do an armored Godsmack?

 

[cyke_out]

I tested Doomsday.

Doomsday cannot backdash or jump.

Doomsday's d1 trades with superman's f2. f2 is i8, doomsday's d1 is i7. Breath is +1 on block. Making Doomsday's d1 effectively i8. 8=8 so a trade. d1 is also long reaching enough to hit even if at the tip of the freeze breath.

I was also able to MB b3 after breath, absorb the f2 and launch Superman before getting hit with the follow-up 3.

 

[Dulllyanna]

Remember that even if your character can backdash, if the Superman player reads that he can just walk forward then blow you up with.......... f23 lol. Granted doing that opens him up to eating the shorter ranged d1s, but it's all still in his favor nearly all of the time. Also he doesn't even need to backdash to make most d1s whiff, he can just hold back then f23 lol (Though again, if you get him to start doing that then that opens up backdash for everybody as an option). Ultimately there's no easy answer for any character, you just have to outplay him.

 

[SLy]

Remember that even if your character can backdash, if the Superman player reads that he can just walk forward then blow you up with.......... f23 lol. Granted doing that opens him up to eating the shorter ranged d1s, but it's all still in his favor nearly all of the time. Also he doesn't even need to backdash to make most d1s whiff, he can just hold back then f23 lol (Though again, if you get him to start doing that then that opens up backdash for everybody as an option). Ultimately there's no easy answer for any character, you just have to outplay him.

Backdashing isnt the most ideal thing to do. If he reads it you will get hit into another full combo.

 

[Killphil]

If you can't back dash out of it, how is it not a block infinite?

Seems like this needs looking at.

Pushblock. Sure it costs a bar, so you're probably right anyway.

 

[Dulllyanna]

Yep, you have to mix it up between backdash, d1, jumping back or forwards if you think he'll do one of the delayed options (Though second part of f23 has a sick AA hitbox ofc), and just sitting there if you don't know what he'll do, which is still dangerous because it puts you closer to that awful awful corner.

Also I forgot to mention, Superman's 22 df1/223 "mixup" can be fuzzy guarded, meaning you block one direction then switch to the other to block correctly every time. In general block low against superman normally and watch out for f3 or strings with overheads, since f2 has a safe low option that also leads to combos and df1 is one of his viable wakeup moves.

 

[Solid]

Questions: Apart from a 6 frame jab/D1 that would beat, a 7 frame jab/D1 that would trade and a backdash that some characters have to deal with Superman's so called OP frame trap, What does Superman get by using his silly frame trap over and over? What is the chip damage? Can't ALL charachters MB B3 or MB F3 Superman's next F23 SB and FULL combo punish it and IF Superman decides to NOT do a F23 SB rep and eats the MB F3/B3 on block be at heavy disadvantage?

Please reflect on these questions, hit the lab and give your answers.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Yep, but at 10frames, you can make it very hard for him to land it. As noted above, his j2 is -8 unless he basically hits you on the floor with it.

What does this mean? If 223 is -3, where are you getting 10frames from?

Also, you`re saying that jp2 is -8. But can`t he just start inputting a string before it lands and have the string connect to the jp like everyone else?

 

[4x4lo8o]

So I'm testing it right now, and I haven't gone through all the characters yet, but right now I haven't found a character other than Ares who actually gets punished if he tries to back dash out of the f23~breathe loop. Most characters do end up blocking part of the f23 and ending up in the loop again if I simply dash back and then hold back, but it's hard to tell who would have time to d1 or b3 or use some other normal or special but I'm not gonna do that much character specific testing right now. For all of you stating that your character can't back dash out, please try and clarify whether you mean they just get stuck back in the loop or not. Obviously if you just have to block it again it's not super useful but if you can block it means you probably have at least a frame or 2 of space that allows you to do something and it might give you option if you're suspecting he'll try something other than f23.

Edit: Green Lantern definitely can't back dash out without eating the f23 either.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I think we should compile a list of characters that can and cannot backdash it. I will add it to the original thread.

If anyone is bored and wants to test a few characters please do!

Catwoman can back dash it easily, and her b3 goes right under his f2 for a punish. It`s a mixed bag though because it`s -3 on block and you`re screwed being close to superman and negative.

 

[Solid]

Btw I've seen many tourny matches over these past weeks and many Supermen, nobody could really abuse the frame trap and win by constantly abusing it. It is Superman's footsie tool to force a mistake and to start a combo. I am willing to bet my life that every charachter has a way to deal with it to atleast show the Superman player that by doing it over and over won't win him a match. The latest was REO vs CD and Superman supposedly destroys Doomsday. Check that match out. IMO it was a very high level match between high level players repping the characters i mentioned and who came out the winner? Everybody still has to level up in this game.

Btw i forgot pushblocking in the post before this one.

 

[JaredL]

Catwoman can back dash it easily, and her b3 goes right under his f2 for a punish.

His F2 is a mid no? How can a B3 go under it. Must be some wonky ass hitbox.