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Strategy Johnny Cage Frame Data

THTB

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Somberness Frame Data
How to understand this.
Execution (singular | cumulative)
1 - 8
1,1 - 11 | 21
1,1,1 - 13 | 38
1,1,4 - 14 | 39
1,1,F+1 - 13 | 38
1,3 - 12 | 22
1,3,2 - 27 | 50
2 - 9
2,1 - 15 | 29
2,1,B+4 - 25 | 55
2,1,F+2 - 22 | 52
3 - 9
4 - 9
4,4 - 15 | 26
D+1 - 6
D+2 - 7
D+3 - 7
D+4 - 12
B+2 - 16-64
B+3 - 11
B+4 - 22
F+2 - 16, 35 second hit
F+3 - 9
F+3,2 - 15 | 31
F+3,3 - 14 | 30, 38 second hit
F+3,3,B+3 - 17 | 61
F+4 - 28
Throw - 10
Low Forceball - 19
Low Forceball (full screen) - 46
High Forceball - 19
High Forceball (full screen) - 52
Flipkick - 9
Shadow Kick - 8
Nut Punch - 18
Double Low ball - 19, 39 second hit
Double Low ball (full screen) - 46, 56 second hit
Double High ball - 23, 43 second hit
Double High ball (full screen) - 56, 60 second hit
Ultra Flipkick - 9, 58 second hit
Eclipse Kick - 8
Eclipse Kick (full screen) - 21
Nutcracker - 18
Ball Buster (start up) - 2

Advantage (block | hit)
1 - 0 | 0
1,1 - 0 | +16
1,1,1 - 0 | +6
1,1,4 - 0 | +5
1,1,F+1 - +3 | +4
1,3 - 0 | +7
1,3,2 - 0 | +19, +27
2 - 0 | 0
2,1 - 0 | 0
2,1,B+4 - -8 | +1
2,1,F+2 - -3 | +55, +44
3 - 0 | +6
4 - -3 | +4
4,4 - -1 | 0
D+1 - -13 | +1
D+1 (vs crouch) - -13 | -1
D+2 - -6 | +30, +22
D+3 - -7 | +3
D+3 (vs crouch) - -7 | +10
D+4 - 0 | +12
D+4 (vs crouch) - 0 | +5
B+2 - -11 | -1 (+52, +43 max hold)
B+3 - -15 | +54, +51
B+4 - +3 | +28, +25
F+2 - -16 | +8
F+3 - 0 | +3
F+3,2 - 0 | +7
F+3,3 - -4 | +4
F+3,3,B+3 - 0 | +5
F+4 - 0 | +62, +50
Low Forceball - -23 | -4
High Forceball - -23 | -4
Flipkick - -12 | +23, +4
Shadow Kick - -29 | +17, +25
Nut Punch - -23 | +39
Double Low ball - +5 | +24
Double High ball - +5 | +24
Ultra Flipkick - -36 (-85 if second hit whiffs) | +51, +15
Eclipse Kick - -29 to -20 | +17 to +25, +25, +33
Nutcracker - -16 | +46
Ball Buster - N/A | +32

Duration (whiff | block | hit)
1 - 21 | 21 | 21
1,1 - 31 | 31 | 31
1,1,1 - 63 | 63 | 63
1,1,4 - 64 | 64 | 64
1,1,F+1 - 62 | 62 | 62
1,3 - 44 | 44 | 44
1,3,2 - 71 | 71 | 80
2 - 22 | 22 | 22
2,1 - 47 | 47 | 47
2,1,B+4 - 90 | 90 | 90
2,1,F+2 - 82 | 82 | 75
3 - 34 | 34 | 34
4 - 39 | 39 | 39
4,4 - 55 | 55 | 55
D+1 - 25 | 25 | 25
D+2 - 46 | 40 | 62
D+3 - 20 | 20 | 20
D+4 - 33 | 33 | 33
B+2 - 54-97 | 54 | 54-97
B+3 - 53 | 53 | 42
B+4 - 41 | 46 | 43
F+2 - 57 | 78 | 78
F+3 - 36 | 36 | 29
F+3,2 - 57 | 57 | 57
F+3,3 - 69 | 69 | 69
F+3,3,B+3 - 86 | 86 | 86
F+4 - 44 | 44 | 44
Forward Throw - 36 | N/A | 183
Backward Throw - 36 | N/A | 180
Low Forceball - 62 | 62 | 62
High Forceball - 62 | 62 | 62
Flipkick - 48 | 48 | 79
Shadow Kick - 60 | 64 | 63
Nut Punch - 56 | 68 | 68
Double Low ball - 54 | 54 | 54
Double High ball - 58 | 58 | 58
Ultra Flipkick - 48 | 121 | 121
Eclipse Kick - 66 | 64 | 63
Nutcracker - 56 | 61 | 61
Ball Buster - 91 | N/A | 386

Cancel Advantage (block | hit)
1 - +18 | +25
1,1 - +16 | +22
1,1,1 - +15 | +19
1,1,4 - +21 | +24
1,1,F+1 - +17 | +19
1,3 - +26 | +28
2 - +22 | +21
2,1 - +26 | +33
3 - +26 | +31
4 - +25 | +33
4,4 - +22 | +23
D+1 - +1 | +15
D+1 (vs crouch) - +1 | +13
D+3 - +2 | +12
D+3 (vs crouch) - +2 | +19
D+4 - +26 | +32
D+4 (vs crouch) - +26 | +25
F+2 - +21 | +14
F+3 - +21 | +16
F+3,2 - +25 | +31
F+3,3 - +23 | +28
F+3,3,B+3 - +24 | +27

Miscellaneous
Breaker (when grounded vs grounded opponent) - ~+6, ~+5
Ball Buster - invincibility on frames 1-2, 67 active frames
Eclipse Kick - armor on frames 2-14
Nutcracker - invincibility on frames 2-18
1,3,2 - 1 frame gap

DrDogg's Frame Data

Here's what I've done so far. It's only execution frames for the time being, but once I get a friend to help I'll be able to do block/hit frames.

As always with manually done frame data, some things may be slightly off due to various issues such as human error, data capture error, etc. But I try to make this as accurate as possible.

Projectiles are based on close proximity, and execution frames may vary with character hit box size. I have no X-Ray frame data because I don't have a reliable way to determine active frames.

Once I have all of the frame data completed, I'll put it in an easy to read format.

Attack - Execution Frames

1 - 8
2 - 9
3 - 10
4 - 9

d+1 - 6
d+2 - 7
d+3 - 7
d+4 - 12

b+2 (no charge) - 16
b+2 (full charge) - 64
b+3 - 11
b+4 - 22

f+2 - 16
f+3 - 9
f+4 - 28

Throw - 10

Combos

1,1,1 - 8
1,1,f+1 - 8
1,1,4 - 8
1,3,2 - 8
2,1,f+2 - 9
2,1,b+4 - 9
f+3,2 - 9
4,4 - 9
f+3,3,b+3 - 9

Specials

d,f+2 - 19
d,b+2 - 19
d,b+3 - 9
b,f+4 - 8 (12 frames from max range)
b,d+1 - 18

EX Specials

d,f+2 - 19
d,b+2 - 22
d,b+3 - 9
b,f+4 - 8 (22 frames from full screen)
b,d+1 - 18

X-Ray - N/A
 
D

DrDogg

Kombatant
dope619 said:
by execution frames, do you mean these are the active frames for each attack?
Click to expand...
No, execution frames are basically the speed of the attack. From the time you press 1 to the time the punch connects with an opponent is 8 execution frames.

Active frames would be the frames Cage's projectile is active from the end of the execution frames until it will not longer hit an opponent. Unfortunately, there's no way to accurately determine active frames with the hardware available to us. We'd need a debug mode to do that.
 
E

evansgambit

Guardian of Outworld
DrDogg.

Great work. With regards to Cage's X-Ray startup and active frames. Could you use Sub Zero's X-Ray charged down to measure it, as a reference point, something along that lines. Or maybe Cage's charged palm, B+BP or B2, charged a certain amount of time to estimate and time it.

I think it could work, but it'd be alot of trial and error. Maybe check out any frame visual cues first.

Or perhaps, set the arcade stick to turbo (to the nearest 2 frames etc). and calculate an attack to hit, based on frame difference. Once all the frame data is worked out of course.
 
D

DrDogg

Kombatant
tenshox said:
So basically those are the startup frames ?
With the move consisting of startup - active - recovery.
Click to expand...
Yes. You won't be seeing active frames though. Without a debug mode they're very difficult to calculate.

evansgambit said:
DrDogg.

Great work. With regards to Cage's X-Ray startup and active frames. Could you use Sub Zero's X-Ray charged down to measure it, as a reference point, something along that lines. Or maybe Cage's charged palm, B+BP or B2, charged a certain amount of time to estimate and time it.

I think it could work, but it'd be alot of trial and error. Maybe check out any frame visual cues first.

Or perhaps, set the arcade stick to turbo (to the nearest 2 frames etc). and calculate an attack to hit, based on frame difference. Once all the frame data is worked out of course.
Click to expand...
Any way you attempt to calculate the active frames of his x-ray would require quite a bit of trial and error. Maybe when all other frame data is done I'll try it, but not before then.
 
King

King

Sig Maker
Yep, except for Raiden's teleport and KL's spin. In that case, you guys would trade if you both did them in the same instant; that would mean only one of you would win the trade.
 
P

Playpal

Warrior
Shoutouts to Somberness for the info:

F32: +7 on hit
F33B3: +5 on hit
13: +7 on hit
nutpunch: +39
D1: +1 on standing opponent, -1 on crouching opponent, both on hit
D3: +3 on standing opponent, +7 on crouching opponent, both on hit
D4: +12 on standing opponent, +5 on crouching opponent, both on hit

ex forceball: +5 on block

Moves that appear to be neutral on block (not confirmed):
11
F3
F32
F33B3
21

Moves that are disadvantage on block:
21F2
F33 (-2 iirc)
21B4
44

I would assume everything is advantage on hit. Except maybe 21 and 44.
 
P

Playpal

Warrior
A F0xy Grampa said:
You sure 21F2 is disadvantage on block? It always felt the same as F33B3 to me
Click to expand...
Just tested and it is. Looks to be less so than F33, so I may be remembering wrong.

How I tested: Set AI to block. Did 21F2 and as soon as it chipped I went to AI settings and set it to neutral crouch. AI crouched first. Conclusion: disadvantage.
 
Somberness

Somberness

Lights
F33 is -4, I said -2 but changed it after. That's all I remember posting about. I should find out x-ray properties, I do know the startup is 1 frame. If you get hit on that first frame, like other x-rays, you don't take any damage but for his, it does not activate.
 
Dizzy

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
From what I could tell by testing, JC x-ray has invincibility on first frame but is not active (cannot parry). His parry seems to become active on the second frame.

I tested this by using scorpion doing JIP into b2. A shallow JIP into b2 with scorpion will not jail (a deep one will however) so JC is able to let go of block and xray, which results in the b2 whiffing through his body while he does his xray "come on" animation.

I haven't been able to test this theory, but I believe moves that hit him on this first invincible frame cause the enemy to react as if the move was blocked or hit armor. When a move is blocked or hitting armor its active frames immediately end, which seems to be the case on the invincibility on xray startup and would explain the xray isn't triggered by further active frames.

This hypothesis is further supported by the fact that this is how the game handles ex nut punches invicibility.
 
P

Playpal

Warrior
Dizzy said:
I haven't been able to test this theory, but I believe moves that hit him on this first invincible frame cause the enemy to react as if the move was blocked or hit armor. When a move is blocked or hitting armor its active frames immediately end, which seems to be the case on the invincibility on xray startup and would explain the xray isn't triggered by further active frames.

This hypothesis is further supported by the fact that this is how the game handles ex nut punches invicibility.
Click to expand...
Makes sense, I mean when you throw a projectile at someone doing an invincible wake up, the projectile doesn't go through them; it disappears.
 
P

Playpal

Warrior
Yo @foxygrampa, I take back what I said about 11F1 being useless. It's advantage on block.


Also, how do you tag people in your posts?


****dancock here just add a @ symbol to the name like twitter.
 
Dizzy

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
eskuAdradit0 said:
Do any of you know how many frames is EN nut punch invincible?
Click to expand...
I think I missed seeing this post. While I can't provide a definite answer, I might be able to provide some insight.

I know it is invincible from frame 1 to frame 18 (first active) always. I believe the invincibility wears off after active frames end; this happens when it has whiffed and it's active frames expired naturally, the move was blocked, or it made contact (regular hit or has hit an armored opponent).

A curious thing that while invincible, he seems like he still has a hurtbox against armored moves, but takes no damage. If an armored move comes in contact with your invincibility, the armor of the opponent's move ends prematurely (as if it was blocked). This is what allows you to do EX nutpunch against opponent's armored moves and win. The only time you wouldn't win if you did it much too early, so your EX nut punch hit their armor before their attack hit your invincibility. This is much like how armored moves work against each other.

However, most things seem to just whiff through you. Things such as Reptile and Kabals dash specials, they will just run through you as if you are not there.

Edit: Oh and you can throw JC out of startup on EX nut punch too, it has to be extremely early (started throw animation before EX nutpunch even started) as once his body goes into the crouch position the throw animation will whiff.
 
Dizzy

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
I think this may be the only thread I have both liked and thanked.

I hope that you appreciate the magnitude of this situation.
 
P

Pagan

Mortal
Finally. I knew all this talk of JC's f3 string having frame advantage on block was bullsharks. Once again Somberness sets the record straight!
 
xenogorgeous

xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
very nice stuff, I was always curious about Johnny's frame data info .... well done, great work, nice job ! :D :)
 
Dizzy

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
[MENTION=3937]Somberness[/MENTION] my favorite poster

I was curious if partial hold on B2 changed the block/hit advantage? I assume the ones listed are for the 3% no hold B2, and for the 11% unblockable B2.

Just wondering if the 5, 7, 9, 11 (non-unblockable) percent partial charged hits were different from the no charge B2.
 
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