Strategy Psuedo Advantage

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

This is johnny cage. Yes I said it. This is just as important as fwd3. Fwd3 sets up for you to establish psuedo advantage and the two of them together make johnny cage what he is, the best character in the game at close range. Let me explain exactly what this, if some of you cage players do not know. s.2 has a start up of 9 frames, but more importantly it has a duration of 22 frames. That is fast. Seriously. This is important because, as humans, we have a limited reaction time. Most players can not "see" a move until about 25 frames (this varies due to some animations being more obvious than others (like quan chi's up3 for example). So that means, a player cannot react to blocking a standing 2 until about 3 frames after cage has already recovered. Therefore, cage can abuse this move like it is advantage on block. s.2 into fwd3 is practically a frame trap, or s.2 into another 2, or my personal favorite, s.2 into d3. Basically your opponent tries to react to s.2 and tries to poke after it, but you are at psuedo advantage, so your d3 beats theres, you catch them crouching and are at plus 10 to get a free fwd3. To beat this psuedo advantage, your opponent needs to literally commit to poking after anything that hits them because they do not have time to react that it is a s.2. This opens up full strings even more than just fwd3 mixups, because with fwd3 they can actually react to it, so they can technically guess every time. with standing 2. they have to guess that s.2 is coming, and then guess if a full string is coming, giving cage that much better of a chance of being right. I feel this needs to be discussed because quite frankly, cage players don't abuse this. At least not all of them. GGA Dizzy def does, and there is no doubt he is the best and most successful of us, so lets all take a page from his book. I am back as 100 percent cage till this game dies (hopefully not any time soon) so I will be posting a lot again. What are your guys thoughts on this? Have you been knowingly abusing this? Have you just used it by feel, not thinking about why it works? Or have you not used it at all? I am telling you guys though, this is truly the key to success with cage imo and OZZYGUITAR HGTV Ermacio and HGTV DrFlash44 will tell you it is extremely effective. This can also be used with s.1 with a duration of 21 frames and d3 with a duration of 20 frames.

 

[crosstalk]

Yep I love using 2 pressure. If I see my opponent is respecting repeated 2s by ducking, that's when I let f3 go. If they like to try to poke, block or ex nut punch. 2 into throw catches a ton of people as well (dat JOP tech).

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Yep I love using 2 pressure. If I see my opponent is respecting repeated 2s by ducking, that's when I let f3 go. If they like to try to poke, block or ex nut punch. 2 into throw catches a ton of people as well (dat JOP tech).

You know whats fucked up? Your opponent cannot even react to ducking to s.2 and punish it. They have to guess you will do it. And yes 2 into throw is good because most players connot even react in time that they blocked a standing 2 to get out of the throw.

 

[crosstalk]

You know whats fucked up? Your opponent cannot even react to ducking to s.2 and punish it. They have to guess you will do it. And yes 2 into throw is good because most players connot even react in time that they blocked a standing 2 to get out of the throw.

There's been times where I've hit people with like 5 standing 2s in a row just to test it out haha. Some players can catch onto it though, I remember playing Tyrant in casuals and he started ducking 2, but perhaps I was just using it a little too much in that set.

 

[Illmatix]

yep this is really bogus my bro does it to me now and it's really hard to deal with, i have always thought frame data is very useful but you can always sneak in stuff you know they can't react to it.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

There's been times where I've hit people with like 5 standing 2s in a row just to test it out haha. Some players can catch onto it though, I remember playing Tyrant in casuals and he started ducking 2, but perhaps I was just using it a little too much in that set.

They have to read that you are going to try to s.2, and yeah tyrant would be willing to take that guess.

 

[Dizzy]

If you know for sure the opponent is going to block and wait for you to push them out you can spam standing 2 and build a ton of meter. It gives them a wake up call that they have to play your game up close and you are willing to do it. Once you get them to start poking then you can play your normal 21 game. Doesn't work so good on chars with extremely fast standing normals that launch like KL/Sonya/Sektor/etc though.

crosstalk in your example, once you have the person respecting it, I don't think its a good idea to go back to it unless you need to make a comeback and you are expecting them to try and turtle and not risk poking out.

 

[crosstalk]

2 and 21 to force them standing is awesome thing to use in pressure. Most players fear the overhead followup into nutpunch so they'll try to stand. If they start to lose respect for it, that's when you use the overhead and get that nut punch in haha.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

2 and 21 to force them standing is awesome thing to use in pressure. Most players fear the overhead followup into nutpunch so they'll try to stand. If they start to lose respect for it, that's when you use the overhead and get that nut punch in haha.

Yeah thats the messed up part. They have to guess to be able to guess if you are going to overhead or not. And the more your opponent worries about that, the longer it takes them to react, and the more psuedo advantage you can get. I love this character.

 

[crosstalk]

If you know for sure the opponent is going to block and wait for you to push them out you can spam standing 2 and build a ton of meter. It gives them a wake up call that they have to play your game up close and you are willing to do it. Once you get them to start poking then you can play your normal 21 game. Doesn't work so good on chars with extremely fast standing normals that launch like KL/Sonya/Sektor/etc though.

crosstalk in your example, once you have the person respecting it, I don't think its a good idea to go back to it unless you need to make a comeback and you are expecting them to try and turtle and not risk poking out.

Yeah Winter Brawl was when I first really started to implement standing 2 more into my game, so I was probably just being way too predictable with it at the time haha.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Yeah Winter Brawl was when I first really started to implement standing 2 more into my game, so I was probably just being way too predictable with it at the time haha.

I have been using this knowingly since january 2012, but I haven't really discussed it with anybody until recently I have been playing more cages and seeing them not do it, I realized that only some of us know exactly what this normal can do.

 

[Red Reaper]

It works really well and basically forces them to guess. I hate the 2 1 F2 string. lol.

 

[Zyphox]

This is johnny cage. Yes I said it. This is just as important as fwd3. Fwd3 sets up for you to establish psuedo advantage and the two of them together make johnny cage what he is, the best character in the game at close range. Let me explain exactly what this, if some of you cage players do not know. s.2 has a start up of 9 frames, but more importantly it has a duration of 22 frames. That is fast. Seriously. This is important because, as humans, we have a limited reaction time. Most players can not "see" a move until about 25 frames (this varies due to some animations being more obvious than others (like quan chi's up3 for example). So that means, a player cannot react to blocking a standing 2 until about 3 frames after cage has already recovered. Therefore, cage can abuse this move like it is advantage on block. s.2 into fwd3 is practically a frame trap, or s.2 into another 2, or my personal favorite, s.2 into d3. Basically your opponent tries to react to s.2 and tries to poke after it, but you are at psuedo advantage, so your d3 beats theres, you catch them crouching and are at plus 10 to get a free fwd3. To beat this psuedo advantage, your opponent needs to literally commit to poking after anything that hits them because they do not have time to react that it is a s.2. This opens up full strings even more than just fwd3 mixups, because with fwd3 they can actually react to it, so they can technically guess every time. with standing 2. they have to guess that s.2 is coming, and then guess if a full string is coming, giving cage that much better of a chance of being right. I feel this needs to be discussed because quite frankly, cage players don't abuse this. At least not all of them. GGA Dizzy def does, and there is no doubt he is the best and most successful of us, so lets all take a page from his book. I am back as 100 percent cage till this game dies (hopefully not any time soon) so I will be posting a lot again. What are your guys thoughts on this? Have you been knowingly abusing this? Have you just used it by feel, not thinking about why it works? Or have you not used it at all? I am telling you guys though, this is truly the key to success with cage imo and OZZYGUITAR HGTV Ermacio and HGTV DrFlash44 will tell you it is extremely effective. This can also be used with s.1 with a duration of 21 frames and d3 with a duration of 20 frames.

this is good, but the only thing i don't like is that it't not a special mid, so they can poke out and some people have faster reactions than others, i will tell you this when i am on the zone, you can't do a standing 2 i will see the visual queue and poke out, or bait your d3, d1. now i think about 3 times consecutively then on the 4 you can 21f2, because after about a second to a second and a half is where people realize "hey this guy just did this like 4 times in a row". this works the best in the corner because there is no way in hell they are jumping out and if you bait their d1/d3 they dead.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

this is good, but the only thing i don't like is that it't not a special mid, so they can poke out and some people have faster reactions than others, i will tell you this when i am on the zone, you can't do a standing 2 i will see the visual queue and poke out, or bait your d3, d1. now i think about 3 times consecutively then on the 4 you can 21f2, because after about a second to a second and a half is where people realize "hey this guy just did this like 4 times in a row". this works the best in the corner because there is no way in hell they are jumping out and if you bait their d1/d3 they dead.

You cannot react to standing 2 and poke it before I recover. That is bullshit. Just saying. You are guessing that it is coming. And obviously they can poke, but it is so easy to make your opponent hold block with cage, there are a thousand ways to set it up.

 

[TakeAChance]

I mean no disrespect, but I thought standing 2 was a staple. I try to abuse it until my opponent does something about it. At that point I do exactly what OP said...start throwing out the 21 and 21f2. Even 21 Ex Forceball gets people at times. Love it.

At East Koast Kombat Cage carried me to the grand finals lol.

If only I was prepared for online reptile offline.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I mean no disrespect, but I thought standing 2 was a staple. I try to abuse it until my opponent does something about it. At that point I do exactly what OP said...start throwing out the 21 and 21f2. Even 21 Ex Forceball gets people at times. Love it.

At East Koast Kombat Cage carried me to the grand finals lol.

If only I was prepared for online reptile offline.

Oh it is, but a lot of cage players use it wrong, if that makes any sense. Only a few of us (mostly dizzy) abuse the fact that it can be considered advantage on block even disregarding the rest of the string. You can use it to create whole different mind games than are being used right now. Cage players are afraid of it being ducked even though it being ducked and actaully punished at all requires a lot of commitment from your oppoennt, thats all im trying to show. If you were abusing it then awesome for you haha.

 

[Zyphox]

You cannot react to standing 2 and poke it before I recover. That is bullshit. Just saying. You are guessing that it is coming. And obviously they can poke, but it is so easy to make your opponent hold block with cage, there are a thousand ways to set it up.

do you wanna play to test this? like i said when i am in the zone, maybe its part guess that if i see cages inside arm not come out that i will poke out, so in that sense then no its is not purely on reaction, since i am expecting it and will REACT accordingly. but obviously you have never played with people with godlike reactions like, tyrant, PL, CDjr, Daigo lol but in the sense that you may have meant it then no it is impossible to not have read that i may come out in the match and poke out of standing 2.

 

[Red Reaper]

do you wanna play to test this? like i said when i am in the zone, maybe its part guess that if i see cages inside arm not come out that i will poke out, so in that sense then no its is not purely on reaction, since i am expecting it and will REACT accordingly. but obviously you have never played with people with godlike reactions like, tyrant, PL, CDjr, Daigo lol but in the sense that you may have meant it then no it is impossible to not have read that i may come out in the match and poke out of standing 2.

I think Krayzie has some of the best reactions in So Cal, better reactions than Tyrant. He said he kan actually react to standing 2, though I haven't tested him, just took his word for it.

 

[Mikemetroid]

I like to alternate between 2 and 1. 11 pressure is godlike when people decide not to crouch it.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

do you wanna play to test this? like i said when i am in the zone, maybe its part guess that if i see cages inside arm not come out that i will poke out, so in that sense then no its is not purely on reaction, since i am expecting it and will REACT accordingly. but obviously you have never played with people with godlike reactions like, tyrant, PL, CDjr, Daigo lol but in the sense that you may have meant it then no it is impossible to not have read that i may come out in the match and poke out of standing 2.

Yeah if you are looking for the standing 2, then you can poke it, in that case your reaction time would be about .15 seconds or 9 frames, so you could poke it easily. However, then you will react late to fwd3 and everything else that you can't beat with a d3. You are talking about pure reaction time, I am talking about seeing the s.2 and then reacting. There is a difference. And i have played against players with those kinds of reaction times, this is a human limitation that i am talking about. I am just not sure if you understand what i am trying to explain. Maybe i can make a video to better explain it?

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I like to alternate between 2 and 1. 11 pressure is godlike when people decide not to crouch it.

Even if they crouch it they cannot do anything about it on reaction. It is fucked up.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

If you know for sure the opponent is going to block and wait for you to push them out you can spam standing 2 and build a ton of meter. It gives them a wake up call that they have to play your game up close and you are willing to do it. Once you get them to start poking then you can play your normal 21 game. Doesn't work so good on chars with extremely fast standing normals that launch like KL/Sonya/Sektor/etc though.

crosstalk in your example, once you have the person respecting it, I don't think its a good idea to go back to it unless you need to make a comeback and you are expecting them to try and turtle and not risk poking out.

Exactly, they cannot react to it, it is too fast so they have to commit. Some players cannot even react fast enough to let go of block, let alone duck and poke.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I think Krayzie has some of the best reactions in So Cal, better reactions than Tyrant. He said he kan actually react to standing 2, though I haven't tested him, just took his word for it.

He probably can if he is looking for it, i can too.

 

[Red Reaper]

He probably can if he is looking for it, i can too.

I know when it ends, but I have to make a read on whether or not he's going to end it. If I interrupt it, it's a read. lol.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I know when it ends, but I have to make a read on whether or not he's going to end it. If I interrupt it, it's a read. lol.

Im not even talking about him following up with the string. I am saying that if cage catches you off guard with the s.2, there is no way you can react in time to let go off block and actually be at nuetral, cage will be at plus 2 or something. This is really hard to explain haha.