One HUGE problem with Regional Classifications

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

First of all this is not a flaming/drama thread, this is a thread to discuss a big potential problem with the MKI rankings.


Now in CrimsonShadow's post for the MKIRankings, the qualifications for a ranked tournament are this:

What Does an Event Need to be Ranked?
In order to be fair, an effort has been made to not include tournaments which feature one region of players almost exclusively. This means no locals, team tournaments etc.

The issue here is that after some discussion with CrimsonShadow, he has let me know that "region" is not based on distance AT ALL.

What "region" means is an area and areas that are supposedly associated with it.

For example, my argument was that NorCal and SoCal are not the same region, since they are appx. 8 hours away from eachother, while Ohio to NY (which are considered seperate "regions") are close to the same distance.
His counterargument was that they ARE the same region, because both NorCal and SoCal are considered the "West Coast Region" When I asked what the entirety of the "West Coast Region" is, he could not give me a full answer.


The problem here is that CrimsonShadow ALONE is allowed to decide what these "regions" are; there are no official guidelines.


He has told me that the "East Coast" region does not actually include all of the East Coast either. In fact when I asked him to make a map of the "regions" he told me he couldn't.

That means he can decide whether or not to rank a tournament based on his individual idea of "regions" that aren't based on distance.



I personally believe that there should be a system in place based 100% on travel distance to determine this. I think this would be an absolutely fair way to decide what is considered traveling far enough to rank a tournament.



Please give me your thoughts.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The problem here is that CrimsonShadow ALONE is allowed to decide what these "regions" are; there are no official guidelines.


He has told me that the "East Coast" region does not actually include all of the East Coast either. In fact when I asked him to make a map of the "regions" he told me he couldn't.

That means he can decide whether or not to rank a tournament based on his individual idea of "regions" that aren't based on distance.

I'm really, really disappointed in this Chef.. This is 100% untrue and making this a personal attack is unnecessary and unfounded.

If you personally believe that NYC and Florida are East Cost rather than Florida being in the South that's up to you -- but don't make it seem like it's my opinion or something I conjured up yesterday.

Thank you for making a personal attack at me when this community's had it's idea of regions for years. I did not invent 'East Coast', 'West Coast', 'South', 'Midwest', etc.

If you feel that NYC players were wrong for wanting an 'East Coast EVO Qualifier' even though there's one in Florida, you need to take that up with them and the rest of the community -- not me.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I'm really, really disappointed in this Chef.. This is 100% untrue and making this a personal attack is unnecessary and unfounded.

If you personally believe that NYC and Florida are East Cost rather than Florida being in the South that's up to you -- but don't make it seem like it's my opinion or something I conjured up yesterday.

This isn't a personal attack, it's a flaw in the MKI system.

If there are set regions then by all means show what they are, otherwise the regions are all subjective (and still not based on distance.)

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This isn't a personal attack, it's a flaw in the MKI system.

If there are set regions then by all means show what they are, otherwise the regions are all subjective (and still not based on distance.)

I didn't invent the concept of West Coast, Midwest, South etc. This has 0 to do with MKI -- you need to take it up with the entire community if you want them to change the way they classify tournaments.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I didn't invent the concept of West Coast, Midwest, South etc. This has 0 to do with MKI -- you need to take it up with the entire community if you want them to change the way they classify tournaments.

I did, I suggested in this thread that there should be a system based on travel distance.

"Region" means nothing, when the point is that a tournament should be considered more important if people that can't easily go to that scene, attend that tournament.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I did, I suggested in this thread that there should be a system based on travel distance.

"Region" means nothing, when the point is that a tournament should be considered more important if people that can't easily go to that scene, attend that tournament.

If you feel 'region' is a meaningless concept, please take that up with the community; not me. It's not my call.

 

[Tolkeen]

First of all this is not a flaming/drama thread, this is a thread to discuss a big potential problem with the MKI rankings.


Now in CrimsonShadow's post for the MKIRankings, the qualifications for a ranked tournament are this:




The issue here is that after some discussion with CrimsonShadow, he has let me know that "region" is not based on distance AT ALL.

What "region" means is an area and areas that are supposedly associated with it.

For example, my argument was that NorCal and SoCal are not the same region, since they are appx. 8 hours away from eachother, while Ohio to NY (which are considered seperate "regions") are close to the same distance.
His counterargument was that they ARE the same region, because both NorCal and SoCal are considered the "West Coast Region" When I asked what the entirety of the "West Coast Region" is, he could not give me a full answer.


The problem here is that CrimsonShadow ALONE is allowed to decide what these "regions" are; there are no official guidelines.


He has told me that the "East Coast" region does not actually include all of the East Coast either. In fact when I asked him to make a map of the "regions" he told me he couldn't.

That means he can decide whether or not to rank a tournament based on his individual idea of "regions" that aren't based on distance.



I personally believe that there should be a system in place based 100% on travel distance to determine this. I think this would be an absolutely fair way to decide what is considered traveling far enough to rank a tournament.



Please give me your thoughts.

I was with you on this until you made this thread.... it's not an MKI issue, it's a community issue that has NOTHING to do with MKI. All tournaments that seed seed non seeded players based on REGION. Like crimsonshadow said, you're problem is with the FGC's classification of region. You should take this shit to shoryuken.

If it's not a drama thread, take MKI out of the title.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I was with you on this until you made this thread.... it's not an MKI issue, it's a community issue that has NOTHING to do with MKI. All tournaments that seed seed non seeded players based on REGION. Like crimsonshadow said, you're problem is with the FGC's classification of region. You should take this shit to shoryuken.

If it's not a drama thread, take MKI out of the title.

the problem applies mostly to MKI though.

And I know a LOT of people wouldn't determine travel by "regions".

 

[CrimsonShadow]

the problem applies mostly to MKI though.

And I know a LOT of people wouldn't determine travel by "regions".

No it doesn't; I didn't invent region classification for tournaments. This has 0 to with MKI -- take it up with the FGC.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/top-players-from-west-east-south-and-midwest.16887/

 

[Tolkeen]

the problem applies mostly to MKI though.

And I know a LOT of people wouldn't determine travel by "regions".

The problem doesn't apply to MKI because it's a community issue. If your complaint is that MKI won't accept 2 cali scenes as a regional, then your issue is with the regional dividers that has been selected by the FGC, not MK, not MKI, not CRIMSON, not ME.

Like I said, I'm with you that cali gets screwed, but so does coco/gga. If you want this to change, trying to call out MKI is not the problem, specifically since Crimson hasn't "dropped" any large tournaments in the wc yet. Get the regions approved through an actual POLL involving TYM and Shoryuken, and I'm sure you'd have a leg to stand on. Until then, class it up and remove MKI from the title. Crimsons trying to help the community and even if he disagrees with you, he's not doing it to spite you, he's just following the FGC conventions.

 

[GamerBlake90]

I changed the thread's title to say "One HUGE problem with regional classifications," because ultimately, regional classifications are the concern here, not MKi itself.

I'll leave the thread alone otherwise, but please keep it cool.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I changed the thread's title to say "One HUGE problem with regional classifications," because ultimately, regional classifications are the concern here, not MKi itself.

I'll leave the thread alone otherwise, but please keep it cool.

dude the problem was with MKI

there isn't an official list of regional classifications anywhere, so how can I have an issue with them if they don't exist?



MY problem is with the one that MKI is using (and the fact that it can change at any time.)



Please change the thread name back, that's what it was about.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

If you can't stay on the real topic without repeatedly flaming the system, this thread should probably be locked -- because this is getting silly.

 

[Tolkeen]

dude the problem was with MKI

there isn't an official list of regional classifications anywhere, so how can I have an issue with them if they don't exist?



MY problem is with the one that MKI is using (and the fact that it can change at any time.)



Please change the thread name back, that's what it was about.

http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US2/NOTES/images/ne-s-mw-w2.gif

This is the region breakdown in the US, this is what the FGC adopted years ago. This is the one that NFG used, and all TO's before then. If you have a problem with this map, you need to take it up with the US Census Bureau.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I changed the thread's title to say "One HUGE problem with regional classifications," because ultimately, regional classifications are the concern here, not MKi itself.

I'll leave the thread alone otherwise, but please keep it cool.

and even still, the problem is more the fact that MKI chooses whether or not ranked tournaments are worthy based on a system that doesn't make sense

 

[Tolkeen]

and even still, the problem is more the fact that MKI chooses whether or not ranked tournaments are worthy based on a system that doesn't make sense

NFG used regional selection also, where's the "HUGE PROBLEM WITH NFG" thread? Oh yeah, it got closed, because it was dumb.....

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

NFG used regional selection also, where's the "HUGE PROBLEM WITH NFG" thread? Oh yeah, it got closed, because it was dumb.....

I posted a lot about the problems with NFG too.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I mean if any tournament ever decided to seed by "who's from the midwest" and "who's from the west coast" and they put SoCal with Vegas and Norcal, I would be REALLY angry too.

This isn't a problem with a regional classification system, it's the problem with a use of it.

If someone wants to classify NorCal SoCal and Vegas together that's fine by me, as long as it doesn't affect me.

 

[BillStickers]

lol chef wtf you've been blowing me up for drama and now you're the one starting it?

CrimsonShadow -- Out of curiosity, could you add a few regional tournaments to mki (on a provisional basis in a testing environment, not on the live site) and see how much it affects the rankings? In my mind, it wouldn't make much of a difference considering you're still testing player skill on a 1-to-1 basis. I could see how adding regionals might potentially inflate ratings; I'm just wondering if it's 1) even an issue at all and 2) if it's an issue that would resolve itself as more tournaments are added. While it might be a little late in the game for MK9, the results of this experiment might be useful for determining which tournaments go into the Injustice rankings.

 

[16 Bit]

Good point Chef and the attempt at strong arming here is super lame.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

lol chef wtf you've been blowing me up for drama and now you're the one starting it?

lol no you just kept talking about it in chat! argh! got on my nerves!

had nothing to do with what you were actually talking about




GamerBlake90 dude this thread doesn't even make sense with that title. If you think it was wrong (which it isn't) then close the thread, otherwise please don't coming in changing my threads titles to something that makes no sense. I mean if you saw the title and then read the post it wouldn't make sense...

 

[Rokinlobster]

Good point Chef and the attempt at strong arming here is super lame.

 

[4x4lo8o]

This a legitimate complaint, why are people mad a Chef for trying to discuss it? He posted in a civil way that shouldn't be inciting any drama. It's not like he's making a hate filled thread ranting about how much MKI sucks. I think he brought up an issue that a lot of people might agree with and this is a good chance to discuss a way to resolve it. Obviously it's complicated to make a ranking system like this, and there might not be a way to do it that'll make everyone happy, but it seems like people are upset that he even made this thread. Why?


I don't understand the 'this is a fgc problem, not an MKI problem' argument. The fighting game community is a huge, vaguely defined, disorganized group of people. Them using a regional system is completely different from MKI. It's one thing some players want to use arbitrarily drawn regions when casually discussing rivalries or who the best players from different regions are or whatever, but if we're talking about a consistent, systematic way classifying tournaments then it doesn't make any sense to do it that way. Maybe there aren't even clear, absolute boundaries to be drawn and in the end we have to rely on the discretion of one or two people, but even then there should be guidelines about how those decisions are made.


For example;
I'm from Arizona. Am I part of the West Coast? I don't know. I probably would say I am in a loose sense. Like if I was talking to someone from New York I'd have absolutely not problem with identifying myself as being from the West Coast. But when it comes down to regions for the purpose of traveling and tournaments it's hard to say I'm the same region as So Cal and pretty much absurd to suggest I'm in the same region as Nor Cal. I'm never gonna travel that far for a local.
It's even worse if you try to make some kind of South West region. I went to MLG Dallas, but I travelled as far for that as someone from New York would going to Orlando.

Also, if you're talking about seeding by region - like what Tolkeen brought up - it makes even more sense to break up the regions more. I don't care if I play Wonder Chef or Denzell or Reno Racks or whoever during pools, I only request that the person making the bracket don't put me in a pool with one of the much smaller number of Arizona guys that I play offline with regularly



I'm not trying to bitch about how far I have to travel to go to even 'nearby' majors, but I think it's fair for those of us not living on the eastern seaboard to bring up how much harder it can be for us to travel and request that it be taken into account.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This a legitimate complaint, why are people mad a Chef for trying to discuss it? He posted in a civil way that shouldn't be inciting any drama. It's not like he's making a hate filled thread ranting about how much MKI sucks. I think he brought up an issue that a lot of people might agree with and this is a good chance to discuss a way to resolve it. Obviously it's complicated to make a ranking system like this, and there might not be a way to do it that'll make everyone happy, but it seems like people are upset that he even made this thread. Why?

Because again, it's a general issue that has to do with how people are classified. It affects everything from where majors are located for things like the road to EVO to whether it's possible to have such a thing as a local tournament if every state must be considered separately. It's not a question that pertains to one system or product; it's a general inquiry into how FGC players chose to classify themselves, and what really separates one type of tournament from another.

It's not up to one person or system to resolve the issue of whether or not regions are worthwhile -- it's a community decision. So for someone to complain to me about the fact that Florida is commonly considered a Southern cousin of Atlanta rather than an 'East Coast' state in the FCG (see the topic post) doesn't accomplish anything; you'd be better off asking the community as a whole how to divide themselves regionally in a way that makes sense.

That's why the title was changed -- and that's why it's silly to attack one system for something that's a community issue.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Because again, it's a general issue that has to do with how people are classified. It affects everything from where majors are located for things like the road to EVO to whether it's possible to have such a thing as a local tournament if every state must be considered separately. It's not a question that pertains to one system or product; it's a general inquiry into how FGC players chose to classify themselves, and what really separates one type of tournament from another.

It's not up to one person or system to resolve the issue of whether or not regions are worthwhile -- it's a community decision. So for someone to complain to me about the fact that Florida is commonly considered a Southern cousin of Atlanta rather than an 'East Coast' state in the FCG (see the topic post) doesn't accomplish anything; you'd be better off asking the community as a whole how to divide themselves regionally in a way that makes sense.

That's why the title was changed -- and that's why it's silly to attack one system for something that's a community issue.

It's ridiculous to keep saying that the FGC has decided to use this system.

I know that at least 90% of the SoCal fighting game players wouldn't consider themselves the same region as NorCal, and every NorCal MK player that I've met would say the same thing.

I don't know where you got the idea that somehow the entire FGC decided on this.