The Silver Lining from NEC's aftermath - and a few other things...

[DJ L Toro]

So player status determines the favors I can receive? As a TO, how are they to tell the difference between "I have to work late" and "I'm sleeping in"? There should be uniformity.

no, player status determines how much you affect the balance of a pool. riu balanced that pool. they can tell the difference by being presented with a set work schedule weeks in advance.
by the way with this point you're not being a good or bad guy, you're just whining because you know you're unimportant and you want everyone else to be as unimportant as you. the point was made that changing pools once the tournament is underway is not ok, but letting it drag on just to whine is pathetic

 

[Justice]

Oh wow. I don't even know where to begin with this....

First off, I would like to thank 9.95 for being so professional and forthcoming about all of this. You are a class act dood.

I guess next is: really? Death threats? Really? Over a tournament? Really? Grow the fuck up. SwiftTomHanks and Dark_Rob I hope you guys can forgive the community for how it's behaved. The VAST majority of us know how hard you guys work and never question your integrity.

About Riu48: The only issue I have with what I know of what happened is that RIU48 should have pre-reged anyway if he wanted to come. If he had and his flight got screwed over, fine. Other than that, the community has to take responsibility for itself. Bullshit like showing up to a tourney with no money and mooching a room last minute or not being responsible enough to be there for your matches/registration or anything else is ON YOU! If you want to go to a tourney and not sure you can make it on time, then you have to decide if you CAN go. Once you decide that, then you have to look at what you need to do to make it happen, like time off work for example.

On Seeding Brackets: There is no hard and fast solution here. No matter what you do, someone's gonna bitch. I've seen this at tournaments of all levels. I did have a thought about this while reading this thread however: how practical of an idea would it be to have like a centralized list, say here on TYM for example, where everyone who attends a major gets an arbitrary point value based on their placement. That way, players are no more than a CTRL-F click away and even the lower-level players can feel good because they got some points towards something. Then what would happen is, the TO's would update this list after every major and this one list could be used by everyone to quickly and easily acces the most up-to-date seeding info? Just a thougt I wanted to share

Pretty much everything else I agree with. For the most part, it seemed to me that most people had and excellent time in Philly thanks to everyone's efforts. It's a real shame about STH and Rob. I really hope they don't leave for good and that the monumental ass jockeys that made them leave feel real proud of what they cost this community.

 

[GGA soonk]

and lbsh, you're not really a game changer, so they could probably move you to whatever pool they wanted without affecting top 16.

Now that I'm home, I can properly address this. The point wasn't about me specifically requesting certain pools, it was about anybody, but since you chose to bring up my player skill, let's talk about it for a second.

Now, I know my tournament record may not be the greatest, but I do plenty for my training partners. All of them. Let's recap.
Jeremiah over Cat
MOE30W over Master D
16Bit over REO
16Bit over REO
16Bit over REO
16Bit over Cat
16Bit over PL

plus I trained offline w/ PL between PU and Evo
PL over REO
PL over CD jr...to win Evo

Not to mention the close matches that Dizzy and HAN have had with REO. That's REO, by the way. Best in the world, with the best character in the game. And I train people to take him out. People travel to train with me, or ask me to travel to play with them. I promise nobody is coming out to Texas to play you.

As for me, and my performance? Some 13s and 17s I think. -edit-I forgot my top 8 at UFGT. Good luck ever seeing single digits.-edit- I came out of my pool at Evo in winners. Oh, and this last weekend at NEC? I faced Curbo in losers finals of my pool. I won't blame the lag for my loss, but the system was unplayable for us both, so a proper match could have gone either way. I was, however, 1 win away from a spot that you couldn't sniff in a 15 man tournament. You know, the spot I wouldn't affect? So, next time you go 2 and out at a local, feel free to grab a snack, pull up your chair, stretch out your fingers, and tell the rest of the internet about just how bad of a player I am.

Oh, and if you're still planning on coming up to Chicago, bring a wheelchair, because I promise you will get your back blown out worse than Larry Flynt.


Moving on to the topic.

Either way it's a moot argument, when Crimson gets his thing up you'll finally have to understand. And if people don't use it that's their problem, either way you're asking TO's one of the following:

"Hey, seed MK based on this website that's out of date, and by manually looking up the information of the top placers of the last 3 to 4 major tournaments (you can figure out if you want to count MLG or not, since you're an EVO tournament)"

or

"Hey, this MK player compiled the results from a bunch of tournaments, that's up to date and includes more names than NFG. Feel free to look at this to seed MK so you're not browsing through dozens of pages looking for what's already been compiled."

The NFG is up to date. It includes NEC, which just happened. The only thing that is "out of date" is that it goes off the past 6 months, so Evo is still in there, and while those players may not mean anything to you guys, they still did place Top 8 at Evo, and are still likely candidates for seeding. Crimson keeps harping on about players quitting, but what if they return? Shouldn't Detroit be seeded if he chooses to attend Winter Brawl? After January, Evo results will be dropped, and the list will change around a bit.

Without something to look at, this is obviously all speculation, but neither of you should expect us to accept something intangible. If Crimson spent as much time working on his project as he does posting about it, it would probably be done by now.

Pig has already spoken with Shin about seeding for FR, and his plan is exactly like I told you. NFG, last 3-4 majors, region, then random everything else. I'm sure Shin can manage.

When will Crimson's list be ready? There's really no point in talking about it any further until we can evaluate it.

 

[Maxter]

We cant run brackets accordingly to the nfg, this will have tms or brothers fighting each other, there are good players that are not that high on the ranking system that can chance things up, the way to's run the brackets is the best way to do it, i dont care about seeding but dont have me fighting CD jr or reo cause of nfg stuff, tms should be separated first, seed them the way you think they are supposed to be seeded, but separated

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The NFG is up to date. It includes NEC, which just happened. The only thing that is "out of date" is that it goes off the past 6 months, so Evo is still in there, and while those players may not mean anything to you guys, they still did place Top 8 at Evo, and are still likely candidates for seeding. Crimson keeps harping on about players quitting, but what if they return? Shouldn't Detroit be seeded if he chooses to attend Winter Brawl? After January, Evo results will be dropped, and the list will change around a bit.

Without something to look at, this is obviously all speculation, but neither of you should expect us to accept something intangible. If Crimson spent as much time working on his project as he does posting about it, it would probably be done by now.

Pig has already spoken with Shin about seeding for FR, and his plan is exactly like I told you. NFG, last 3-4 majors, region, then random everything else. I'm sure Shin can manage.

When will Crimson's list be ready? There's really no point in talking about it any further until we can evaluate it.

If NFG is "up to date", why do they only have 3 places from SB:A, and why is it worth the same as Winter Brawl while EGP:Revelations is worth 7 times that amount? Why is it missing all of m2daves tournament placings except for one? I didn't say anyone quit the game.. But if the rest of the tourney data that needs to be included was included, then people wouldn't be holding on to the top 15 with 1 tournament finish + a local placement.

I've spent weeks working on all of this, started long before NEC happened, and I haven't said much about it until this week.. So I'm not sure why you figure it's cool to make assumptions about how I spend my time, but almost all of your assumptions are wrong.

Pig and I are working out the seeding for FR according to the new system.

 

[GGA soonk]

If NFG is "up to date", why do they only have 3 places from SB:A, and why is it worth the same as Winter Brawl while EGP:Revelations is worth 7 times that amount? Why is it missing all of m2daves tournament placings except for one? I didn't say anyone quit the game.. But if the rest of the tourney data that needs to be included was included, then people wouldn't be holding on to the top 15 with 1 tournament finish + a local placement.

And I've spent weeks working on all of this, started long before NEC happened, and I haven't said much about it until this week.. So I'm not sure why you figure it's cool to make assumptions about how I spend my time, but almost all of your assumptions are wrong.

Pig and I are working out the seeding for FR according to the new system.

YOU AND PIG SHOULD NOT BE TOUCHING SEEDING FOR FINAL ROUND. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

YOU AND PIG SHOULD NOT BE TOUCHING SEEDING FOR FINAL ROUND. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept.

The only difference between me and the random person that threw together NFG MK, is that I actually care about having a complete, fair, and accurate representation of tournament placings.

I don't know why you're so attached to a faulty system of ranking, but it's becoming borderline silly and there's no reason to continue to use a broken process when something better is available.

 

[GGA soonk]

The only difference between me and the random person that threw together NFG MK, is that I actually care about having a complete, fair, and accurate representation of tournament placings.

I don't know why you're so attached to a faulty system of ranking, but it's becoming borderline silly and there's no reason to continue to use a broken process when something better is available.

I'm not. I'm attached to player involvement being out of the picture.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

No one is asking you to prove this.. But it's very easy to prove. The fact that any EGP player can rise up the rankings by playing Revelations, but Season's Beatings receives no points, should be a giant warning sign to anyone with common sense. And that's one of many issues.

Anyway, GGA Dizzy is right, and the facts are good enough to stand on their own.. So I'm going to stop arguing and get back to organizing.

fyi revelations is the major, redemption is the monthly

not sure if you got them confused or what

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I'm not. I'm attached to player involvement being out of the picture.

Did I miss something? We're statting people on tourney results, and only tourney results, not player opinions.

fyi revelations is the major, redemption is the monthly

not sure if you got them confused or what

Right, but the list of top players from revelations is similar to a Cali local.. And the winner received 7 times the points that Dizzy received for topping CD Jr. and PL to win SB:A.

In addition to that, no one outside of top3 at SB:A received anything at all.

It's not about Revelations specifically.. It's about the way that tourney's are randomly included or not included, or given weight that doesn't reflect the roster. If the whole point of this is to seed things in a way that's fair, then we need to be as fair as possible in how we count results.

 

[Maxter]

So since im on 5th place on the nfg, and reo Jr and I go on diff pools, lets say reo Jr Pig and PL are on one pool of their own cause they are top 4 and we have 4 spots for a top 8 winners, this means i'm gonna be thrown on pigs pool by default since he is the fourth on the list? they wont put me against reo Jr or PL cause they have better seeding, so pig will be my rival, i think this is a little messed up, i don't mind fighting pig and i know he don't mind either, but these things will make pools too predictable. on majors it doesnt work that way, that is evo where you got top seed only fighting with people that dont even belong in the ranks or have seeding EVO points, in grass roots, you just separate brackets by tms, household, and then seed the top players to fight at the end of each pool, you can't just throw a bunch of top players in one pool and give the top5 or 4 the easiest ride of their life, tournaments should be ran they way they have beeen ran since the beginning, NEC was perfectly done with the bracking, and i don't want to hear more about the Riu48 situation. i dont think shinblanka or other TOs not related that much with the community knows about all the top players that can give problems to any of the top seeds either.

 

[MortySeinfeld]

The SF communities thoughts are completely irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, to be 100% fair and just, an outside source should be doing the seeding. To think otherwise is simply being lazy/not wanting to change. I am definitely not calling you that Phil, I love all the work you do, and although I never met you in person, I find you delightful to watch and your time is usually spent doing well for the community, I applaud you for that.

The seeding issue is something that should be changed. It will be an issue at every tournament until it is. In fact it's so simple to change, it just seems that more people are concerned about the perception of the change than setting an example for the other communities.

I think the best way to do seeds is to simply seed by region (no other factors). Do your best to separate regions, and let random number generators do the rest.

Tournament seeding shouldn't be determined by who did the best at the last tournament, or the last several tournaments.

Tournament registration should include a zip + area code to assist with this.

From an observational standpoint; I had a lot of fun watching the tournament, and know how hard everyone works at these events to keep everyone happy. Phil and the NEC MK Staff's hard work was definitely appreciated, and it is good to see we are constantly making a conscious effort to improve things for future events.

 

[GGA soonk]

So since im on 5th place on the nfg, and reo Jr and I go on diff pools, lets say reo Jr Pig and PL are on one pool of their own cause they are top 4 and we have 4 spots for a top 8 winners, this means i'm gonna be thrown on pigs pool by default since he is the fourth on the list? they wont put me against reo Jr or PL cause they have better seeding, so pig will be my rival, i think this is a little messed up, i don't mind fighting pig and i know he don't mind either, but these things will make pools too predictable. on majors it doesnt work that way, that is evo where you got top seed only fighting with people that dont even belong in the ranks or have seeding EVO points, in grass roots, you just separate brackets by tms, household, and then seed the top players to fight at the end of each pool, you can't just throw a bunch of top players in one pool and give the top5 or 4 the easiest ride of their life, tournaments should be ran they way they have beeen ran since the beginning, NEC was perfectly done with the bracking, and i don't want to hear more about the Riu48 situation. i dont think shinblanka or other TOs not related that much with the community knows about all the top players that can give problems to any of the top seeds either.

Why can't the seeds be dropped in randomly? If it's sports style, it's too predictable.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

How about this.

You trust the TO's to seed brackets fairly, including trusting them to choose trustworthy people to help them.

If you don't trust them with that, then why would you go to their tournament in the first place when there's money on the line?

This discussion is stupid.

 

[DJ L Toro]

Now that I'm home, I can properly address this. The point wasn't about me specifically requesting certain pools, it was about anybody, but since you chose to bring up my player skill, let's talk about it for a second.

Now, I know my tournament record may not be the greatest, but I do plenty for my training partners. All of them. Let's recap.
Jeremiah over Cat
MOE30W over Master D
16Bit over REO
16Bit over REO
16Bit over REO
16Bit over Cat
16Bit over PL

plus I trained offline w/ PL between PU and Evo
PL over REO
PL over CD jr...to win Evo

Not to mention the close matches that Dizzy and HAN have had with REO. That's REO, by the way. Best in the world, with the best character in the game. And I train people to take him out. People travel to train with me, or ask me to travel to play with them. I promise nobody is coming out to Texas to play you.

As for me, and my performance? Some 13s and 17s I think. I came out of my pool at Evo in winners. Oh, and this last weekend at NEC? I faced Curbo in losers finals of my pool. I won't blame the lag for my loss, but the system was unplayable for us both, so a proper match could have gone either way. I was, however, 1 win away from a spot that you couldn't sniff in a 15 man tournament. You know, the spot I wouldn't affect? So, next time you go 2 and out at a local, feel free to grab a snack, pull up your chair, stretch out your fingers, and tell the rest of the internet about just how bad of a player I am.

Oh, and if you're still planning on coming up to Chicago, bring a wheelchair, because I promise you will get your back blown out worse than Larry Flynt.

I never claimed to be the best. I also have never complained about brackets. if i was moved from reo and pigs bracket to maxter and 16 bit's pool i'm likely not getting out of it either. Until you become a gamechanger then you can say whatever you want, but until then complaining that a tournament made balanced brackets based on prearranged arrangements is stupid.

and yes, i'll be in chicago, but not for you.

 

[Maxter]

Why can't the seeds be dropped in randomly? If it's sports style, it's too predictable.

I understand your point soonk, but this will have tms fighting eachother too, or maybe a pool full of top players and 2 or 3 easy pools, right now reo is top seed, this is not EVO if we do it with the nfg or maybe EVO points REoO carl and Jr should have free pools while all the other top players fight in one pool to survive, EVO points and nfg works diferently, the way this has been done for years is the way the it should been done, you have 4 pools to get top4 winners and top 4 losers, it doesnt matter if it starts with 16 or 8 pools, it will come down to 4 on top 8 all the time, you separate players by region and teams, and split top players equally on both teams or you will have a top 8 losers full of players that didnt deserve to be there cause they will get bodied by the other top 4 anyway, the system can't be change this idea is really stupid, NEC pools were very well done and you had top players on all pools and those had to struggle to get out of there, randomizing is what mlg does, they only seed like 8 players on diffrent side of the main bracket and then they just randomize, thats why you had han fighting 16 bit before top 8 and the terry brothers fighting for top 16, mlg really needs to fix their system and they will i bet, they just need to split household and tms not only seed players. we can't change this system right now on majors this is the best way to do the pools.

 

[GGA soonk]

I never claimed to be the best. I also have never complained about brackets. if i was moved from reo and pigs bracket to maxter and 16 bit's pool i'm likely not getting out of it either. Until you become a gamechanger then you can say whatever you want, but until then complaining that a tournament made balanced brackets based on prearranged arrangements is stupid.

and yes, i'll be in chicago, but not for you.

I did not complain. Bit did. Is he not a game changer, either? I posted here on TYM on behalf of the whole team.

 

[GGA soonk]

I understand your point soonk, but this will have tms fighting eachother too, or maybe a pool full of top players and 2 or 3 easy pools, right now reo is top seed, this is not EVO if we do it with the nfg or maybe EVO points REoO carl and Jr should have free pools while all the other top players fight in one pool to survive, EVO points and nfg works diferently, the way this has been done for years is the way the it should been done, you have 4 pools to get top4 winners and top 4 losers, it doesnt matter if it starts with 16 or 8 pools, it will come down to 4 on top 8 all the time, you separate players by region and teams, and split top players equally on both teams or you will have a top 8 losers full of players that didnt deserve to be there cause they will get bodied by the other top 4 anyway, the system can't be change this idea is really stupid, NEC pools were very well done and you had top players on all pools and those had to struggle to get out of there, randomizing is what mlg does, they only seed like 8 players on diffrent side of the main bracket and then they just randomize, thats why you had han fighting 16 bit before top 8 and the terry brothers fighting for top 16, mlg really needs to fix their system and they will i bet, they just need to split household and tms not only seed players. we can't change this system right now on majors this is the best way to do the pools.

Oh, I just meant randomize the seeds with respect to region. Is that possible?

 

[DJ L Toro]

I did not complain. Bit did. Is he not a game changer, either? I posted here on TYM on behalf of the whole team.

he is, but his bracket was balanced, he had no right to complain either and he was on OBS about 2 hours ago to say "my bad" about it

 

[Maxter]

Oh, I just meant randomize the seeds with respect to region. Is that possible?

Hmmn. regions, tms, brothers? that would work nicely, i know we only have like the terry bros and cd bros, and cd bros and reo are higher seeded and tms at the same time, then any other vsm will have have to be splitted evenly on pools, if we have 8 vsm players, we need to have 2 of them on each pool at least, if its 4 pools, we cant have 3 on the same side, and seed them accordingly with their performance, i mean if you have a system that can work splitting tms and seeding at the same time that would work nicely, its basically what tos try to do without the need of a computer program, let me know what you working on, it sounds interesting =)

 

[GGA soonk]

he is, but his bracket was balanced, he had no right to complain either and he was on OBS about 2 hours ago to say "my bad" about it

he said my bad about blowing up, not my bad about bringing it up. if there wasn't an issue, phil and shock wouldn't have been so accommodating to his concerns.

 

[Maxter]

top 4 seeded on the vsm team are cd cd jr REO and maxter, we are supposed to be on diff pools, then comes riu48, insuperable winterwarz and josh 360 they are going to be on each of our pools on opposite side of the brackets so you dont have tms fighting each other until end of the bracket, on top 8 if cd cd jr and maxter make it on winners we are supposed to fight each other of course or losers we will have to fight each other but at least we wont eliminate each other in winners and losers, if the other vsm members do good they will get to top 8 in winners or losers, but we are giving equal chances to tms.
now lets say cd jr reo and maxter attends a tourney, cd jr, maxter and reo will be separated of course, but cd jr and maxter should be on diff opposite side of the brackets since they brothers and live on same household. just give me some examples of what kind of system you are working on and i will give you my opinion, i know you can come up with something nice, ill keep listening to the on blast show for a little and then go to bed, good night all.

 

[GGA soonk]

top 4 seeded on the vsm team are cd cd jr REO and maxter, we are supposed to be on diff pools, then comes riu48, insuperable winterwarz and josh 360 they are going to be on each of our pools on diff site of the brackets so you dont have tms fighting each other, on top 8 if cd cd jr and maxter make it on winners we are supposed to fight each other of course or losers we will have to fight each other but at least we wont eliminate each other in winners and losers, if the other vsm members do good they will get to top 8 in winners or losers, but we are giving equal chances to tms.
now lets say cd jr reo and maxter attends a tourney, cd jr, maxter and reo will be separated of course, but cd jr and maxter should be on diff opposite side of the brackets since they brothers and live on same household. just give me some examples of what kind of system you are working on and i will give you my opinion, i know you can come up with something nice, ill keep listening to the on blast show for a little and then go to bed, good night all.

I'm not working on anything, but I will think about it some more. I just got back from being on the road, give me a bit =]

 

[fr stack]

does anyone know wot was said to swiftomhanks ? or were it was said ?? was it in person .. can we get ip address from someone who knows?? dat shit is not on, its a fuckin video game sure tempers can get heated put dats wot makes our game special , i guarantee it was some dickless twelve year old sayin these ''threats ''
darkrob got threatened as well or is he just extremely pissed off at people who expect the world on a plate ?
gotta say this has pissed me off

 

[CrimsonShadow]

top 4 seeded on the vsm team are cd cd jr REO and maxter, we are supposed to be on diff pools, then comes riu48, insuperable winterwarz and josh 360 they are going to be on each of our pools on opposite side of the brackets so you dont have tms fighting each other until end of the bracket, on top 8 if cd cd jr and maxter make it on winners we are supposed to fight each other of course or losers we will have to fight each other but at least we wont eliminate each other in winners and losers, if the other vsm members do good they will get to top 8 in winners or losers, but we are giving equal chances to tms.
now lets say cd jr reo and maxter attends a tourney, cd jr, maxter and reo will be separated of course, but cd jr and maxter should be on diff opposite side of the brackets since they brothers and live on same household. just give me some examples of what kind of system you are working on and i will give you my opinion, i know you can come up with something nice, ill keep listening to the on blast show for a little and then go to bed, good night all.

We're working on putting the system together and it's pretty close to being ready to go.. But we need your tournament info (and your brothers) to help complete it. There are really 3 amin keys:

1) Base seeding off the most complete set of top-tournament results that are available, rather than picking favorite tournaments and players
2) Seperate people by geographic concerns
3) Make all the info available to everyone, and make the seeding process as easy, unbiased, and painless as possible

It'll be the first time that anyone's had access to such a complete system, and hopefully it'll be a big step forward for eliminating the kinds of issues that have been popping up at a number of events.