The Silver Lining from NEC's aftermath - and a few other things...

[Pig Of The Hut]

Wait did I miss something? Who made death threats to who?

That's retarded

 

[Tolkeen]

Yeah but nobody here was seeded for a different pool.. It was decided well ahead of time, before the pools wee even made. Basically what you're saying is, if a TO decides that before making the brackets that CD and CD Jr. or MIT and Denzell should be in diff. pools because they live in the same house, that's somehow screwing people that haven't been seeded yet.

That doesn't make sense..

No, what I'm saying is that there is no way to shift a seeded players time around without screwing up someone elses seeding. And moving around people that "aren't" seeded, has the potential to fuck up other peoples experience. If you want to attend, pre-register, hope for the best, and if you can't make you're pool, we appreciate you pot monstering. Otherwise, you're getting preferential treatment to other people. Letting a few people get away with shit because they are well known just encourages them to keep acting that way. Just look at celebrities who have legal trouble, no proper punishment, means no change in behavior.

 

[GGA soonk]

9.95 is there a way I can get ahold of the bracket from NEC? Did you save the Tio files?

Also, I think we have the seeding/bracket issues pretty close to being ironed out.. And I think we'll be setting a new standard for the entire community very soon.

The only thing that I wonder about is.. Yeah, everyone wants to win and it's easy to be a 'fairness nazi' and whatnot.. But this community is also kind of a family, and we stick by each other. Without the community, just playing the game isn't nearly as much fun. So with that said:

If there's a reason that putting 1 player in a later pool puts everyone else at a disadvantage, then clearly it shouldn't be done. But if it can be done fairly (listed ahead of time) and he might well have ended up in that pool anyway (randomly).. And it doesn't put other people at a disadvatage, are we selfless enough as a community to say "ok, this probably won't hurt anyone and it'll allow another great player to participate in this awesome tournament?"

If we're totally honest, what does it really cost anyone else, as long as it's not done in order to move that player away from or towards certain people or give them a competitive advantage/disadvantage?

Otherwise, how far do we take it? Do we start DQ'ing players who get stuck in traffic coming from 3 states away and show up at the venue 5 minutes late, even though their matches haven't started? Technically by the rules you can do that.. But what does it accomplish?

The moderators of this site could be nazis as well and instantly ban anyone that gives the tiniest possible excuse to do so.. But instead they mostly choose to work with people, unless they feel people are specifically trying to abuse.

Anyway, food for thought.

I really disagree with this post.

First of all, I know you're trying to help with your little ranking system, but it's unnecessary. You and the rest of this community need to stop downplaying the NFG rankings. Pig hand seeded players this morning based on tournament results from June until now, and what do you know? The lists side by side are nearly identical.
All this talk of systems and outsourced seeding is ridiculous. Seed by NFG, sort by region, and everyone else gets pooled randomly. It's fair, and it's simple, so any TO can do it, even if they aren't in the MK loop.

There's a call for a new seeding/bracketing solution, and everyone wants their hand in it. Player involvement is exactly what we're trying to avoid. NFG doesn't have friends; regions don't have friends; random placements don't have friends. Stop over complicating things.

Second, you are insane to make exceptions for players. As Phil already stated, it becomes a slippery slope, not to mention no player should ever be able to dictate their own pool placement. This is unfair to every other player that must play the pool they are assigned. If you start making exceptions, you won't stop. If you do stop, you're playing favorites. If you don't stop, the tournament never finishes, or maybe it never starts.

If you want the game and its events to be taken seriously, you need to start taking it seriously. Ignoring an accurate ranking system for seeds and allowing players to dictate when they play and whether or not they show up on time makes it sound like you're running the tournament out of your basement. I'm not traveling across the street for that, much less across the country.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I really disagree with this post.

First of all, I know you're trying to help with your little ranking system, but it's unnecessary. You and the rest of this community need to stop downplaying the NFG rankings. Pig hand seeded players this morning based on tournament results from June until now, and what do you know? The lists side by side are nearly identical.
All this talk of systems and outsourced seeding is ridiculous. Seed by NFG, sort by region, and everyone else gets pooled randomly. It's fair, and it's simple, so any TO can do it, even if they aren't in the MK loop.

There's a call for a new seeding/bracketing solution, and everyone wants their hand in it. Player involvement is exactly what we're trying to avoid. NFG doesn't have friends; regions don't have friends; random placements don't have friends. Stop over complicating things.
.

NFG ranks 20 people. About 5 of them no longer play tournaments. So that's 15 people. Now, lets forget for a second that it's based on incomplete data.. We have rankings for 15 people. Now we have to seed a 70-man grassroots major.. At which maybe 5-7 of those on the NFG list are present. So we seed only 5 people, and randomize the entire rest of the bracket because NFG is some godlike authority over MK placement?

That makes absolutely zero sense.. It's completely devoid of logic.

Now add to this that NFG is based on imcomplete data, and that we have a much better system based on a much more complete set of information.. And you're essentially arguing with ghosts.

The call for decent seeing isn't new.. It's been going on for a year. There have been issues at numerous tournaments. We're not complicating -- we're simplifying. Solid data, and and easy system that anyone can understand, based on real results.

 

[Dizzy]

9.95

Yes, I agree on-site TOs need to be the ones making the brackets. No one else. It's good that you are on the same page as everyone else who is sane. Just about everything in your post looked good to me. Glad to see you have taken the criticism in stride, as all good TOs do.

Not every tournament runs well, PU2012 was extremely delayed and had its share of issues (including power in the venue which made monitors turn off and PS3s drop inputs etc), Osirun come out and said, hey I messed up, it'll be better next year. That's all the people who feel sleighted want to hear, that you recognize what went wrong and that you will take precautions to avoid it next time. In your post you said this, so good stuff and I am glad you understood what the complaints were about. Not that you or anyone else are "bad people", just that there is some stuff that can be fixed for next time.

 

[Dizzy]

CrimsonShadow

I think once your system/website/whatever you have in mind is complete, we will have a better idea of what it is and how it can be used. I don't think you will be convincing anyone, especially GGA Soonk of anything until you have it ready. When it is, we will see to what capacity it can be used.

If it is a useful seeding tool, then it will be something TOs can use if they choose (important word here) to use it. At the end of the day it is up to TOs how they do things. I don't think demanding they make their brackets specifically to certain guidelines is good at all. Seeding needs to happen but its up to them how its done.

 

[Protagonist_1]

I'm mainly a stream monster and do not have the financial means to come to tournaments, however I will say this:

Phil did an excellent job with the stream (DarkRob, SwiftTomHanks, and any others I didn't name), and I really appreciate the amount of time and effort the Tournament Organizers put in. They do the best they can to make as many people happy, and are human like anyone else. In my opinion you guys don't receive enough credit. I'm really sad to hear about DarkRob and STH leaving, I don't even know them personally and I feel terrible inside. I really hope they come back, and whoever sent death threats should be banned immediately and is extremely immature for there actions.

To add to this, this is one of the motto's I go by when it comes to stream monstering:

"Stream monstering is a privilege, not a right"

Sounds corny, however this is how I feel when I watch a stream. A stream is a mere privilege to view what goes on in tournaments from at home (or where ever you watch it). Streams where unheard of in the past, and in my opinion should never be the main focus of a tournament, but instead the people at the tournament. I don't complain if a stream lags, or even if it drops, only if it's asked about, because at the end of the day it is a PRIVILEGE that I'm even getting to watch it in the first place.

I would also again would like to say how mature Phil has been in this matter, being open to criticism and discussing things privately, as well as Soonk speaking up on this as well. Hopefully there will be a positive outcome that will benefit the community.

-Protagonist_1

 

[GGA soonk]

9 of the 20 were there. Look at the past few majors, seed a couple other names, and you're good to go. Any TO can do this. In fact, expect it to happen.

You didn't defend players determining their own pool placement and arrival time. Maybe you want to let them determine seeds, too?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Here's one example:

Take a look at the NFG ranking for m2dave. Why is he ranked where he is? Because NFG includes data for him for exactly one tournament: EVO. Yet NFG includes 800 points worth of tournies for PBoard for Northwest Majors and EGP: Revelations.

This is just one instance out of several; but the point is, people need to stop assuming NFG is some kind of godlike accurate ratings source, and start looking at the actual facts of who's done what in tourney.

9 of the 20 were there. Look at the past few majors, seed a couple other names, and you're good to go. Any TO can do this. In fact, expect it to happen.

9 out of 20 happened to be at one tournament.. That's a pretty good turnout, and it's still not even enough to do top16 seeds. And that's 9 ranked based on incomplete/misleading info as I've explained above.

Makes absolutely 0 sense and isn't helpful in the majority of circumstances.

 

[CptXecution]

9.95 excellent post and this is why you're one of, if not, my favorite person in this community. You handle everything with class and don't need shows to get your point across in a responsible, and graceful manner.

As far as my input, my last EC tournament ECT4 and that was a disaster but what no one talks about how the first quarter of it went which was PERFECTLY. The moment SwiftTomHanks turned it over to everyone else, it became a disaster and for that reason, I feel he should be the only competitor to handle pools, he's BY FAR the best.

Now for the death threats towards SwiftTomHanks please, come forward to me and I'll handle you accordingly, try me.

Dark_Rob SwiftTomHanks 9.95 Phil you ALL did a great job with what was in your control and I applaud you, some decisions were questionable but this post has handled this in a great manner.

I look forward to seeing you at Winter Brawl, all of you.

 

[Tolkeen]

9 of the 20 were there. Look at the past few majors, seed a couple other names, and you're good to go. Any TO can do this. In fact, expect it to happen.

You didn't defend players determining their own pool placement and arrival time. Maybe you want to let them determine seeds, too?

Neither Winter Warz or BlueNine is seeded, so you're complaining about their placement in the pool is unfounded, if you believe NFG is the end all be all.

 

[GGA soonk]

So while it isn't perfect but it's pretty close, instead of pointing a TO to NFG plus last 3-4 majors, you want me to convince them that CrimsonShadow from testyourmight.com has a better list? I'm sure Keits will be all over it.

 

[Zoidberg747]

So while it isn't perfect but it's pretty close, instead of pointing a TO to NFG plus last 3-4 majors, you want me to convince them that CrimsonShadow from testyourmight.com has a better list? I'm sure Keits will be all over it.

Its not like it takes every single game the competitors have played or anything.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying its necessarily better than NFG, but you talk as if its just a list he came up with in 5 minutes on his own opinion.

 

[GGA soonk]

Neither Winter Warz or BlueNine is seeded, so you're complaining about their placement in the pool is unfounded, if you believe NFG is the end all be all.

I guess when I said nfg + last 3-4 majors if needed, you went blind halfway through.

 

[Skkra]

The thought that anyone would run someone like Andrew out of town over the way a tournament was handled is sickening.

 

[GGA soonk]

Its not like it takes every single game the competitors have played or anything.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying its necessarily better than NFG, but you talk as if its just a list he came up with in 5 minutes on his own opinion.

I'm just concerned on the amount of player involvement. Crimson feels certain players are no longer relevant or playing the game. If that's the case, NFG will update accordingly, but because it pulls from the last 6 months it won't be immediate. If no new players are getting points and the same current players are the ones getting top 8s or whatever place that gives points, the list won't change, only the order, which is why the 6 month time limit is in effect.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

So while it isn't perfect but it's pretty close, instead of pointing a TO to NFG plus last 3-4 majors, you want me to convince them that CrimsonShadow from testyourmight.com has a better list? I'm sure Keits will be all over it.

No one is asking you to prove this.. But it's very easy to prove. The fact that any EGP player can rise up the rankings by playing Revelations, but Season's Beatings receives no points, should be a giant warning sign to anyone with common sense. And that's one of many issues.

Anyway, GGA Dizzy is right, and the facts are good enough to stand on their own.. So I'm going to stop arguing and get back to organizing.

 

[DJ L Toro]

9.95 and CrimsonShadow on the arriving late/pool switch stuff:
Both of you are making slippery slope arguments. slippery slope is a logical fallacy. i'm sympathetic to the "no harm no foul" argument though. if placing riu in a later pool still allowed balanced pools then what's the issue? it doesnt give anyone an advantage or disadvantage. on the contrary, until he was addd to that pool it could be argued (and i heard that it was) that that pool was substantially weaker than the others and the tournament was unbalanced. While some might call this rigging, i see it as proper preparation because 1) you made the tournament as balanced as it could be, and 2) you knew well in advance that he would be late. the latter is good preparation because if he signed up (and paid all fees and whatnot) and was placed in an earlier pool then you would have to wait whatever designated allotted time for him to arrive to his station knowing full well that he wouldnt be able to show up. this means delays.

on the topic of delays, i believe on one of rob's posts i read that marvel caused registration to lag behind because they didnt show up until 3 hours after their designated registration time. while i'm fine with allowing on-site registration and not only online registration, 3 hours late is unacceptable and MK registration should have started. granted i wasnt there so i dont know the specifics, but i know that if i go to a tournament that tells me i have from 9-11:59 to register and i get there at noon i do not expect them to let me.

 

[Tolkeen]

I guess when I said nfg + last 3-4 majors if needed, you went blind halfway through.

I guess you didn't realize that you said that after I made my post.

 

[GGA soonk]

Well Toro, maybe I'd like a later pool, too, and so would he, and him, too, and maybe that guy over there. Can we all have a late pool? Why not? He got one.

 

[GGA soonk]

I guess you didn't realize that you said that after I made my post.

I didn't, because I'm on my phone.

 

[Tolkeen]

I didn't, because I'm on my phone.

Either way it's a moot argument, when Crimson gets his thing up you'll finally have to understand. And if people don't use it that's their problem, either way you're asking TO's one of the following:

"Hey, seed MK based on this website that's out of date, and by manually looking up the information of the top placers of the last 3 to 4 major tournaments (you can figure out if you want to count MLG or not, since you're an EVO tournament)"

or

"Hey, this MK player compiled the results from a bunch of tournaments, that's up to date and includes more names than NFG. Feel free to look at this to seed MK so you're not browsing through dozens of pages looking for what's already been compiled."

 

[DJ L Toro]

Well Toro, maybe I'd like a later pool, too, and so would he, and him, too, and maybe that guy over there. Can we all have a late pool? Why not? He got one.

no, "i'd like" and "i cannot make it unless" are different, and lbsh, you're not really a game changer, so they could probably move you to whatever pool they wanted without affecting top 16. the point is to maintain a balance

 

[GGA soonk]

no, "i'd like" and "i cannot make it unless" are different, and lbsh, you're not really a game changer, so they could probably move you to whatever pool they wanted without affecting top 16. the point is to maintain a balance

So player status determines the favors I can receive? As a TO, how are they to tell the difference between "I have to work late" and "I'm sleeping in"? There should be uniformity.

 

[Euphoric]

#TeamSoonk