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How to play against Defense Jabs

Shock

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Administrator
Founder
O.G.
Players from every level and platform have been asking me about the "glitch" jabs that have been used online for the last three years, and recently surfaced in tournaments with Mr I Got Bass, so I decided to make a guide to play against it, since even online players are often very annoyed by this. Interestingly enough, this tactic has never been abused offline until recently. With enough exposure, any tactic becomes common, and beatable.

Back in June of 2007, DreemerNJ mentioned on this site about something interesting he tried out, which allowed him to jab while holding block, down, and back, essentially an all defense, offensive attack. That was the first public mentioning of this I had ever seen. The only problems with this, are you are stuck in a stationary position and cannot perform (most) special moves while holding block even if you are not blocking, which is the same as when you hold the Run button. Players started using this a few months later, and mostly on the DS port of UMK, to simply be annoying, there's no other explanation. This eventually started becoming popular on XBL with random players.

From my personal experience online, I never found it to be that annoying because most players who used it at all, stopped after losing a few times because if you do counter it, the tactic becomes shallow and boring, and comes pretty close to insulting the integrity of the game. When a player does commit to the strategy, it becomes a tedious, seemingly arduous task to play against it match after match. The tactic is annoying, make no mistake about it, but it is entirely beatable. So, here's a little insight on it.

To explain the tactic, the player is holding Block after starting the cycling of either high or low jabs, and in many cases is also holding down (to prevent being swept or the few low hitting moves in the game) and/or back (to prevent being thrown. This is an "all defense" attack pattern. We can call them "Def Jabs" for short, instead of Kara, because they aren't the same thing. During this animation, sweeps are blocked from a standing position since the character is locked that way, and they cannot perform moves like a Teleport Punch, Spear, Spin, Wave Punch, etc, but they can do charge moves like the Sai Shot, Cannon Ball, Bike Kick, Ground Pound, and simultaneous button press moves like the Slide or Leg Grab. Again, this is if they are committing to holding Block.

The player often times cannot jump over the jabbing character, even if they don't have a particularly good anti air move that can be done quickly after releasing block, like Kabal's Spin for example, but the active factor is the that the punches are constantly throwing a wall of collision in front of them in short intervals, so in order to clear the jabs you have to be far enough away on the jump to not be hit on the way up, but you will usually land so you are between the character and their jab collision, and get pushed back into the jabs anyway.

The best thing to do against the glitch jabs is repeatedly sweep the tip of the jabs from as far away as possible to make the character block and enough of this will cause them to change things up. Remember, during a sweep the collision box of the character is changed from being a thin rectangular box in the center of the sprite, into a box that is the entire surface area of the entire sprite's max dimensions. Players most often notice this while being swept during a projectile or a roundhouse when the sweep has "extra range." It's always like that, it's just more blatant the further the reach.

You can try to Kara jab against them to just stop the animation and guarantee you punishment safety, but Vs a character like the Female Ninjas, or Kabal, it is difficult to get in close enough without just blocking yourself and not interrupting the Def Jabs. Remember, vs any character, your advance can be vulnerable, so you have to attack with the anticipation you may be countered. But just as you are vulnerable, so are they, and more so because their best reward also has the highest risk.

I'll go over some commonly used tactics to support the jabs, particularly vs Kabal.

Vs a character like Kabal you also have to worry about the spin, which can beat out a sweep attempt before it happens. After one or two of these sweep attempts, they will most likely attempt a spin on a wakeup whether it's blockable or not due to the anticipation of the player being frustrated at not being able to land positive contact at all and only achieving chip damage. Most importantly, always be ready to block because the Spin can benefit from random usage in this situation more than usual. Kabal is one of the most commonly used characters to abuse this tactic because the suddenness of the Spin complements it so well.

You can also just "stand there and wait" until your opponent gives up and comes in and try counter, however if they are ahead on energy, they will most likely let the time run as long as possible if they are fully committed to the tactic, since you are forced to attack. Your goal should be to get ahead on damage even just slightly to force stupid mistakes. Running in and trying to counter kara jab, or doing the tactic yourself generally leads to minimal success, so the max distance sweeps are you best bet. A blocked sweep from max distance is the best bet.

Getting in closer with ducking LKs works better with Sonya, Kung Lao, perhaps the Robots or even Sheeva, but you really want to create distance to prevent from being punished. A character like Mileena can punish a blocked sweep with a Roll for example, and a Teleporter can come out on the other side and pressure you to the wall.

You can fake a rush and move back, to bait a walk but they will often jump away with a fireball, which is a good time to connect something like a teleport punch or rush in and hit a HK if Kabal does an air fireball, but watch for the Spin after if you rush on his landing. If you jump back, also watch for the Spin while you're in the air, so it's better to use a character like Smoke or Ermac if you're going to attempt jump back strategies so you can teleport behind a Spin, and also Teleport Punch (and punish) Kabal jump backs after Def Jabs are abandoned periodically to mix it up.

A well timed backward JK can counter the Spin, along with a JP starter, but this is not a fool proof method. A far away jump will at times bait a Spin attempt, which is very often blockable since you will land approximately at the same time the Spin will connect at a near full screen attempt, or it will go right under you, so watch for a follow up Spin, or a revert to the Def Jabs.

If you gain significant advantage against this tactic during the match, watch for random cross up throw attempts that are easily countered by an uppercut. This is generally done to throw you off from the Def Jabs and most likely they will revert to it the next round.

Unblockable moves like the Sheeva Ground Stomp, Jax Ground Pound, Cyrax Bombs, or unduckable moves like the Forceball, all hinder the usage of the tactic to some extent due to forced positioning. Depending on the character using the Def Jabs, will dictate the best character to counter with. It's also important to experiment with the entire roster as much as possible. Knowing how to play as a character will help you learn how to play against a character.

Always remember your opponent doesn't necessarily have to be holding Block during Def Jabs and this means they can do special moves during that time. A good test once again, is the sweep, so if they block it standing, they are most likely committing to the tactic, but if they aren't, you will get free sweeps against them unless they are good enough to skillfully Blue Block the sweeps.

Apply these tactics to other characters you may see use this, like Nightwolf, the Female Ninjas, Liu Kang, and Stryker, remember the properties of their special moves, and the punishability as well.

If anyone would like to add things they do vs this tactic, feel free, specify who you use, and against whom.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Very informative post.

I use the long sweeps as well, because if they rush in for a combo or rj, you recover fast enough to start a combo of your own or land a throw. But since I use Kitana mostly now, I simply stop them with an iAF and turn the offense back to my side.

Against Kabal, implementing your own Defensive Jabs into your run jab offense can be helpful to counter any random spins, but it's always better to keep the offense on the move pushing them to the corners.

What you posted about not being able to do special moves is right and wrong. Right being that you cannot do a special move while holding block while doing HPs or LPs. But you can time a special move to come out during the recovery of any of the def jabs if you let go of block before you start the move. It is more difficult to time, but very doable.

This should be added to the guides section of the site.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
Yeah absolutely that is important. As I mentioned specials specifically cannot be done while block is being held and typically, these players tend to commit to holding blocking until the jab cycle is interrupted and move to one of the next steps in the overall strategy. Depending on the player, they will move away from this sooner or later. The specials mentioned that do work, you do not have to release block to perform but you do have to stop jabbing for some. Jax for example, you can Jab, hold block, and charge Ground Pound, and just release LK and if it's on the recovery it'll cancel to the GP as you said. For Liu, I think you have to at the very least stop Jabbing.

But just like holding Block with nothing else and buffering a move, you can perform them by releasing block after you perform the directionals. With the rhythm of the Def Jabs and the intent on annoying and baiting, it does make it more difficult to perform the actual moves. This is just something that you have to contend with and it becomes a guessing game. If you throw enough long sweeps out, they will have to commit more to holding block, diminishing the effectiveness of the strategy overall and complicates dexterity. Make their hands crumble into arthritic carpal tunnel disaster.
 

NinjaGrinder

A living, Breathing Piece of Defecating Meat
LOL the carpal tunnel stuff was funny

Very informative post as konqrr said, thanks. I've never seen this shit before though. It seems pretty boring and annoying, judging for your post and some ghetto kabal matches that I saw from some tournament.
I'd really like to know, who developed that tactic, and how. I mean what was on their mind when they thought of it?
 

AC1984

Kaballin!
I think the first one who ever came up with it was a player called Chain. very nice stuff Shock and Konqrr
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
I think the first one who ever came up with it was a player called Chain. very nice stuff Shock and Konqrr
ded_ told me ChaiN had mentioned it to him and started using it, but I don't know when that was.
 

Lucky Day

Kombatant
Very informative read.

I think the jabs, like most new tactics that are introduced with success in fighting games, will eventually be learned by everyone and countered fairly easily.

Personally, with my experience against Ghetto and watching it at the last tourney, I think getting that early life lead is important.

The jabs really don't have any defensive value once you've got the life lead and are ready to sit back, so you're forcing the other player to come to you. And against Kabal baiting and punishing those spins is your best bet.
 

X820

Noob
I think the first one who ever came up with it was a player called Chain. very nice stuff Shock and Konqrr
Eventhough I've had my share with that guy, credit has to be given where credit is due.

ChaiN showed me this way back in 2006, so yea he is the first to come up with this, I vouche for that.

Unless there is someone else prior to 2006, wich I doubt.
 

X820

Noob
Good guide btw Shock;

My experience is that anything that will force him into a block-animation can work (props AC),
long ranged sweeps beeing the safest like you mentioned.

People who over use this, especially with Kabal are waiting for free spins basically, they will let you come close doing nothing but punching the air lol.

A standing (long ranged) HK works from time to time allowing you to step in and reverse the process on them, wich most likely will make them 'play' so to speak, thus giving you options to counter, punish etc.

Watch out for crossjumps though, they are not always candy.

My 2cts.
 
Without a doubt Tim, this among other things should have been kept in the dark.
Definitely not, it would have come up eventually. Better to tell everyone about it and find ways to beat it or do well against it than be ignorant to it and get caught off guard. Knowledge is power, right?
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
What Juggs said ^^

I use this in MKII with Scorpion mostly in mirror matches whenever possible. It's just too good not to use.
 

X820

Noob
Definitely not, it would have come up eventually. Better to tell everyone about it and find ways to beat it or do well against it than be ignorant to it and get caught off guard. Knowledge is power, right?
Sure, I'm not disputing that at all, it's just my oppinion that things like this and MGP for instance, that the longer people (scrubs) do not know about this the better, it's not an issue about beeing able to counter or even using it.

Either way it's lame, I think we can all agree on that at least.
 
I use them on occasion to try to bait, or I'll start using it if they jump at me during a kara jab to try and land an aa hp. Really it has mild usefulness, I think it loses effectiveness after a few times in a match. I play Cyrax though, so I have to use every baiting tactic at my disposal to try and land my setups.

As for countering them, I usually smack them with a max range HK, two if they're spamming it. The fast chip damage makes them stop usually, but sometimes it doesn't and I'll have to throw in a sweep to keep them defensive. If I get the chance, I'll also throw out a short bomb during their immobility, advance with a HK, and throw another short bomb, repeating until they stop. It turns it against them, as the bombs keep me unapproachable between HKs. About half the time they get sick of it and rush me, only to eat a 60% combo or more.
 

eksyte

Noob
after 3 consecutive jabs in one spot it should start draining your run meter or something.
I don't think that would do a whole lot to stem this, but a better solution would be to make the character block if you're pressing block.
 

Lucky Day

Kombatant
Sure, I'm not disputing that at all, it's just my oppinion that things like this and MGP for instance, that the longer people (scrubs) do not know about this the better, it's not an issue about beeing able to counter or even using it.

Either way it's lame, I think we can all agree on that at least.
Just like in any other fighting game the lame or spam tactics usually get weeded out once people learn to deal with them.

It might suck to deal with for a while, but people will eventually be forced to stop using it.

The problem with this particular move is that it's in UMK3, which has a pretty small competitive scene and hardcore player base.

If something similar was discovered in a game with as much exposure and play as street fighter, people would abuse it for a month, and everyone would learn to counter it and make it a non-issue.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
Even if Run is completely drained, you can still cancel attacks. You don't need to use Run to cancel jabs in the corner, it's just safer. You can cancel with HK or LK if you want. When I do Kung Lao's Dive Kick cross screen infinite, I cancel with HK, not Run.

At least for corner jabs, the best way to do this would be to find out where the time duration is stored that keeps track of how much has elapsed between jabs, and make the time frame longer. This way, you could make the push back happen even if the maximum duration of time is abused to stretch out consecutive jabs. This way, there'd be no way to avoid corner push back if you are cycling through jabs. Say right now it's, "If you cycle 3 connected jabs within 0.5 seconds, you will be pushed back." Make "If you cycle 3 connected jabs within 1 second, you will pushed back." The problem is finding where this specific data is stored, and how it's stored, and whether not it's a value than can be changed and monitored easily enough. Complex stuff.

As far as jabbing at the air in the middle of screen, block should be turned into a special move of sorts, so that you cannot cycle into another jab while block is held. Once it reaches the frame where it goes from LPa to LPb, it you should check for block and if block is held, it should block, not jab. This would slow down jab baiting and make double jab baits impossible, but it would fix an annoyance that scrubs abuse to just be annoying. Scrubs who now troll in real life.
 
Even if Run is completely drained, you can still cancel attacks. You don't need to use Run to cancel jabs in the corner, it's just safer. You can cancel with HK or LK if you want. When I do Kung Lao's Dive Kick cross screen infinite, I cancel with HK, not Run.

At least for corner jabs, the best way to do this would be to find out where the time duration is stored that keeps track of how much has elapsed between jabs, and make the time frame longer. This way, you could make the push back happen even if the maximum duration of time is abused to stretch out consecutive jabs. This way, there'd be no way to avoid corner push back if you are cycling through jabs. Say right now it's, "If you cycle 3 connected jabs within 0.5 seconds, you will be pushed back." Make "If you cycle 3 connected jabs within 1 second, you will pushed back." The problem is finding where this specific data is stored, and how it's stored, and whether not it's a value than can be changed and monitored easily enough. Complex stuff.

As far as jabbing at the air in the middle of screen, block should be turned into a special move of sorts, so that you cannot cycle into another jab while block is held. Once it reaches the frame where it goes from LPa to LPb, it you should check for block and if block is held, it should block, not jab. This would slow down jab baiting and make double jab baits impossible, but it would fix an annoyance that scrubs abuse to just be annoying. Scrubs who now troll in real life.
That seems awfully excessive to me just to remove something that's an annoyance. You'd inevitably nerf some of the slower characters like Cyrax who have to depend on things like jab baits just to keep up with the better characters.