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Glitch Canceling and Frame Advantage Update

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
We all know both concepts exist, but didn't know if they were related for sure. That was mostly due to forgetting to or just getting around to testing it since it's a somewhat complicated frame by frame process. I was trying some programming in MUGEN the other night, and after some more testing, it is apparent that the old theory is true, so now we can finally put it into words.

In every match, one character has the frame advantage, meaning, they always win double hit scenarios so long as the attacks are started on the same tick. This remains constant for the whole match. It has something to do with frame update/player priority, which Dreemer can try to elaborate on what he mentioned to me in an IM last night after I brought it up. If the player with the disadvantage starts an attack even 1 tick before the priority player, they will win the double contact (math suggests they should double hit but they don't, it just reacts normally), so the only time priority applies is on simultaneous contact. However, since one player has the frame advantage, the other player seems to also get an extra, relatively unnoticable advantage. This happens to be glitch canceling. I will add a big, in depth explanation to the guides when I get a chance, but for now, expand upon this topic, perhaps if you've noticed or agree with this, or what glitch cancel moves you use most often, if you even try at all etc.

The current explanation was just based on the concept that it can be done, but sometimes you can't. With how few people actually use it, there weren't many situations where two players who do use it at once would have footage to make it obvious one player can, and one player can't, simply based on game rules. We can only assume the random choice of character is so that P1 doesn't always win every simulatenous collision every match. Since the glitch is not longer truly applicable to the concept, since it's an inherent, albeit somewhat consequent part of the system, I almost want to change the name to priority canceling to give it a more fighting game terminological feel, but I think we can stick with glitch cancel for now. It's one of the many fighting game related phrases I either borrow or self-coin that you hear me say from time to time such as "blue blocking" "just frames" "chip damage" "kara" "wake up" "run burst" "relaunch" etc.
 
meh jargon is jargon, who cares

Seriously though that's some interesting stuff. Let me get this right, if you will, correct me if I'm wrong, please.

At the start of every match there is a predetermined player who has "frame advantage" which leads to them winning the tie breaker every single time, correct?

What you've discovered now (if i'm not mistaken) is that the person who does not have the frame advantage actually has an advantage in being able to execute glitch clancels. Is that correct?

My question now, is it impossible to do glitch cancel a move if you have the frame advantage?
 

dreemernj

Ambassador
When I tried it out using usub's glitch canceled freeze, it was impossible for the sub with frame advantage to glitch cancel.

I used usubs just because I know its easy to do in a very reproduceable way. Do aaHP, freeze, pause the game, hold HP, frame advance, do the down forward as you frame advance and on the 10th frame advance press the final button of the freeze and you will glitch cancel the freeze if you do not have the frame advantage. If you do have, there is no way to glitch cancel it.

I haven't seen any way to determine who has the advantage without doing something like trying for a glitch cancel or seeing who wins a double hit. But both of those are tough to use to determine it. But there might be some other way to do it. For testing I just set P1 and P2 to have the same HP button. That way the punch triggers at the same time for both and the one with frame advantage always wins.

The sub's pushing up against each other in air doesn't have anything to do with this. That's a matter of sub's hit box being strange. If they are up against each other when the kick starts the hotbox for the kick is behind and below the coldbox of the opponent.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
This is an example of what the collision detection looks like for Sub's JK. Could be off a few pixels but this is pretty much it. Same goes for Sindel vs Sindel or Jax knee lifts, maybe some other characters. The collision is just simply behind their hotbox.



But yes, the resulting information shows that one player has frame advatnage, one player has glitch canceling. The only way you could know this is if you can tell by eye, which I know I can, when you lose a double contact scenario. The most obvious time to notice this is during double sweeps.
 
Wow, that's really crazy....So pretty much whoever hits the sweet is the frame advantage player. That's really weird. Is it predetermined who the frame advantage or what?
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
I think it's the beginning of each match, as in, same for all three rounds, but I could be wrong on that.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
This explains why sometimes when I practice glitch cancel combos that I can NEVER do the GC no matter how hard I try.

Good find Shock. Need to find out if it is truly random or if there is a way to get it. Does this have anything to do with Sektor's P1/P2 missile spamming?
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
Posting from work...

The Sektor Smart/Dumb Missile conflict is a bit of a mystery, since so far as I can tell, UMK3 is the only game he can do both, and it's only with the 1 player side. It just doesn't make any sense at all. It's weird that I never noticed it was a player side issue. There's a chance I've just never used Sektor as 2nd player very much since I didn't start using him seriously until recently.

As for the random factor, I thought about things like, maybe the first person who attacks in round 1 gets the frame advantage or something but I tested it and found no relation. Also, on top of that, there would be the uncertainty up until that first attack so it seems like a better idea for it to be randomly decided. It's not stage related either since testing last night on the same stage 4 times in a row I got 2 and 2 for both characters.

It also doesn't seem to be character related since some matches you can glitch cancel, some matches you can't with the same character. Another simple example, things like Sonya's sweep sometimes beats Kano or Jax, or Jax will beat Kano or Sonya, or Kano will beat Sonya or Jax, even though all three have identical "normal" sweep frame data. I find that their sweeps often get beat out by other characters but that might just be chance. What makes their sweeps the best is the shorter recovery time, not the start up time.

This however helps a lot of players who are interested in at least practicing the timing for glitch cancels. So if you fire up a 2P mame and test frame advantage, you know whether or not you can do them at all. It annoys me that it took this long for me to actually bother looking into it deeply enough to verify it. We might just have to live with the idea of random frame advantage/glitch canceling. I find it very interesting that it ended up being that way because both concepts are a minor advantage, but both are either hard/risky to determine.

The player with the frame advantage can abuse rush down a little bit more since double contact will go to the rush down player (hence situations where it's tough to escape run jabs even though the situation is reliably escapable through a very small window). The glitch canceling would benefit characters like Robot Smoke, Sektor, Kabal, and the Sub-zeros for example during punisher combos.

Once you learn the timing, it's very easy to gcTeleport Uppercuts, the Spin and the Freezes. Also with Classic Sub, the added aaHPHP gcGround Freeze boosts his standard punisher to over 60% on a punisher without a relaunch (listed in the guides). One thing to point out, you cannot gcGround Freeze if you do an aaHP, Freeze first since you can't have the Ground Freeze out while the Freeze is active.
 

dreemernj

Ambassador
The player with frame advantage really seems randomly picked. I didn't see any pattern.

And Sektor's smart+dumb missile limit is just P1 from what I can tell. It's not connected to this at all.
 
Even though it is random say on xbl how it resets every time and it is always scorpions lair could the same person always have frame update bc of the resetting issue?
 
I've actually been noticing in games how you can't do both. If I get the Frame advantage sweep for example, I know not to try and Glitch Cancel.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
Even though it is random say on xbl how it resets every time and it is always scorpions lair could the same person always have frame update bc of the resetting issue?
No, if you try it on the Arcade or MAME, everytime you reset it is random. When I tested this the other night, I F3ed MAME every match, sometimes P1 had it, sometimes P2.

I've actually been noticing in games how you can't do both. If I get the Frame advantage sweep for example, I know not to try and Glitch Cancel.
Yeah, that is an advantage to knowing about this concept. I think the only thing it might do is make the frame advantage player a little more confident in rush down scenarios since it'd technically be slightly harder, if not impossible to escape certain runjab patterns.
 
excelling at umk3

mostly i've had problems accurately glitch cancelling

like reptiles mid-screen infinite (HPHP, LP)

the main concern is HPHP, cancel with run, walk forwad, LP dash cancel
it's difficult to determine when the "best frames"
to Glitch cancel are in general after the punches, the frames confuse me

especially HPHP, dash cancel & HPHP, LP dash cancel

like when i'm going to dash after the punch, it's difficult to know when to buffer back
then activate the LK after that HP or LP hits

also when under rush down there're certain times one may begin a knee combo
while the opponent is attempting to throw as seen the video
ded_ (Cyrax) vs k3ns0uL (Unmasked Sub-Zero) on youtube

however, the frames are once again difficult to determine
making the concept is more difficult to employ and thus seen less in actual play
to begin the knee combo while under throw pressure provokes being thrown
say for the sake of argument though the combo is begun &
I'm holding back will i be low punched or will my knee connect?:rolleyes:

what i'm trying to figure out, will holding back while starting my knee combo
really worth my doing it
, or should
that be a cardinal principle to include holding back while starting all ground combos?
if you think that it should be; what frames would you find to be the "hottest"
or most efficient to begin holding back then
starting a combo?


Apoligies if these seem like nubile questions
 
I hold back when doing combos in rush down to prevent counter throws same thing when I ducking lk dont know if it really makes a difference.

Oh and for comboing people who are rushing you down watch for the spacing and hit them in the middle of the 6th and 7th frame for good results
 
mostly i've had problems accurately glitch cancelling

like reptiles mid-screen infinite (HPHP, LP)

the main concern is HPHP, cancel with run, walk forwad, LP dash cancel
it's difficult to determine when the "best frames"
to Glitch cancel are in general after the punches, the frames confuse me

especially HPHP, dash cancel & HPHP, LP dash cancel

like when i'm going to dash after the punch, it's difficult to know when to buffer back
then activate the LK after that HP or LP hits

There's no glitch canceling in this combo. There's run cancelling and lately i've noticed run canceling on the aaHP, aaHP(run cancel walk in) aaHP if done too early makes the 2nd aaHP not come out. which sucks and ruins the inf.

Run cancelling is making reptile recover from the 2nd aaHP faster, in order to hit the 3rd aaHP the most effectively.

The dash cancel is just pressing back forward LK during the 3rd aaHP. Very quickly, to the opint where he dashes as the punch motion comes out.

Anywayyy

glitch cancelling is when you make a move like sub zero's freeze for an extra time.

For example..

aaHP, freeze. a glitch would let you hit another aaHP freeze after this. If timed perfectly and you don't have the frame advantage.
 

HAYRON

Noob
Shock, another something to investigate...
Could frame advantage have an effect on breakable combos?

For example could frame advantage give H. Smoke a better shot at breaking the 3hit popup combo to extend it further with another spear? Or in reverse could it give the opponent a better shot at blocking the combo in the middle?

I'm not saying it would always give an advantage, but just increase the chances by 1 frame.

---EDIT---
It is also known that the animation and actual position are one tick/frame off as well. Would that mean that the player with frame advantage also has an extra frame to block sweeps when starting from the standing positioin?
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
I've suspected this as well Hayron, I'll test it out tonight, or anyone else can if they know how to use frame advance in MAME
 

Remz

https//:wavenet.remz.ca
I've suspected this as well Hayron, I'll test it out tonight, or anyone else can if they know how to use frame advance in MAME
I would like to know how to use frame advance. Is it complicated?