General/Other How to properly balanced "The Dash"

[REO]

Let's face it, this special attack has been in many Mortal Kombats and is a very popular and iconic move. It will most likely make a return and be given to The Flash. Now, it will have to be fast and have insane start-up, why? Because it's The Flash. You can't make The Flash slow, he is supposed to be the fastest being ever. So now with the introduction put aside, how would one try and balance a move with a seemingly broken concept?

Here is my proposal:

- Nothing slower than 10 frames of start-up.
- It has to be very punishable on block or whiff.
- It should have extra damage scaling when hitting an air-borne opponent.
- When an opponent is spun in the air, and you let them drop without following up with a combo, they will fall from the air into a knock-down.

These two below are the most important ones:

- Make the input for initiating the attack a charge button(s) (I would use and ).
- Three to five seconds of charging before the attack can be unleashed.

Why charging you say? Think about it. If it's a charge move, it means The Flash can not abuse it whenever he wants. The player will have to hold down a button or two before he can use the attack, which means he can't use many attacks corresponding to the buttons being held down. Think of it as a price to pay for having one of the best specials.

What do you guys think?

 

[Sage Leviathan]

-No charging
-10 frames on startup
-NOT CANCELABLE

The rest is golden.

 

[Espio]

It sounds legit to me, particularly the 3-5 seconds of charging and very punishable on block/whiff.

 

[DragonPick]

Oh dear god, a charge character.

 

[RiBBz22]

If there is a cancel maybe make that be part of the ex move where it would cost some meter, so the mind game would be either a blocked non-cancellable dash or a ex cancelled dash that puts Flash at advantage.

I agree that on block it should be ultra punishable.

 

[Briggs8417]

I don't know if it needs to be charged, maybe just get rid of a lot of the advantage when cancelled, or at the very least neutral and that makes it easier to poke out of block strings?

 

[Prinz]

Not to be a wake-up attack.

 

[Briggs8417]

Not to be a wake-up attack.

I don't think that would be necessary just don't give it a humungous hitbox.

 

[Prinz]

I don't think that would be necessary just don't give it a humungous hitbox.

With a 10 frame start-up it would be invincible (if the invincibility frames from MK9 applied).

 

[Mikemetroid]

With a 10 frame start-up it would be invincible (if the invincibility frames from MK9 applied).

but it wouldn't have dash cancel and would be extremely punishable.

 

[Briggs8417]

With a 10 frame start-up it would be invincible (if the invincibility frames from MK9 applied).

It would be really fast but if you just give it a low hitbox you could jump it.

 

[TakeAChance]

2 frames of vulnerability. Isn't wakups in mk 8f of invuln?

 

[SunnyD]

Make it exactly the same as it is in MK9, but make cancelling it not provide so much frame advantage. +9 block advantages with NDC is just crazy.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I say just make it similar to Kabals, just dont give him a good projectile.

If people actually understood Kabals dash they would understand why I said that.

 

[REO]

Some of you aren't understanding the reason as to why it should be a charge move. If it's not a charge move then you have to deal with a character who has a 10-frame full-screen special attack at any given moment in the match. This means you are going to spend the entire match blocking in fear of said attack. Any time you leave the ground to jump or attempt a cross-up, BOOM, spun. Any time you whiff something or have a punishable move blocked, BOOM, spun. The Flash will be pressuring you with access to all of his attacks and strings, and anytime you hesitate or defend wrong, BOOM, spun.

Now, if it's a charge attack, you won't have to deal with half of the things mentioned above because the player will have to be more wise on how they go about things. If they have a bunch of rush down and mix-ups options that are assigned to or , then they will not be able to use them if they're buffering for spin. If they want to anti-air or punish something heavily, then they will need to charge ahead of time and make better adjusted reads. You, as the opponent can also capitalize on them charging, and this will cause some-what of a time period when The Flash is vulnerable and you can be more risky.

 

[Prinz]

2 frames of vulnerability. Isn't wakups in mk 8f of invuln?

No, it's 11.

but it wouldn't have dash cancel and would be extremely punishable.

I don't mind the dash cancel, it's cool, but must have less advantage.

It would be really fast but if you just give it a low hitbox you could jump it.

Like not hitting airborne opponents? Actually it would be a good idea.

 

[Briggs8417]

Some of you aren't understanding the reason as to why it should be a charge move. If it's not a charge move then you have to deal with a character who has a 10-frame full-screen special attack at any given moment in the match. This means you are going to spend the entire match blocking in fear of said attack. Any time you leave the ground to jump or attempt a cross-up, BOOM, spun. Any time you whiff something or have a punishable move blocked, BOOM, spun. The Flash will be pressuring you with access to all of his attacks and strings, and anytime you hesitate or defend wrong, BOOM, spun.

Now, if it's a charge attack, you won't have to deal with half of the things mentioned above because the player will have to be more wise on how they go about things. If they have a bunch of rush down and mix-ups options that are assigned to or , then they will not be able to use them if they're buffering for spin. If they want to anti-air or punish something heavily, then they will need to charge ahead of time and make better adjusted reads.

Yeah I can see that, I can dig it.

 

[RiBBz22]

Some of you aren't understanding the reason as to why it should be a charge move. If it's not a charge move then you have to deal with a character who has a 10-frame full-screen special attack at any given moment in the match. This means you are going to spend the entire match blocking in fear of said attack. Any time you leave the ground to jump or attempt a cross-up, BOOM, spun. Any time you whiff something or have a punishable move blocked, BOOM, spun. The Flash will be pressuring you with access to all of his attacks and strings, and anytime you hesitate or defend wrong, BOOM, spun.

Now, if it's a charge attack, you won't have to deal with half of the things mentioned above because the player will have to be more wise on how they go about things. If they have a bunch of rush down and mix-ups options that are assigned to or , then they will not be able to use them if they're buffering for spin. If they want to anti-air or punish something heavily, then they will need to charge ahead of time and make better adjusted reads. You, as the opponent can also capitalize on them charging, and this will be some-what of a time period when The Flash is vulnerable and you can be more risky.

What about if the standard version does not launch/lead to a combo, and the ex version does? Maybe that would help to nerf it if they are not interested in adding charge attacks. Just a thought.

 

[Euphoric]

REO You can actually see The Flash start up his Dash in the video about 3 times, it actually seems slower than Kabals. He also gets interrupted by Harley too.

And you should make a Flash Discussion thread called "You give Kabal a run for his Money: The Flash Discussion Thread"

Flash also seems to have a Superman, it looks like Cinders.

 

[9.95]

- Dash cancelling COSTS meter(to make cancels less likely to be abused)
- Travels less distance
- Blocked dash puts Flash into a "Scorpion Spear Stun" state.

**Addendum to REO's 10 frame startup**
- In addition to Flash's 10 frame startup, give him a quick "rearing back" animation that gives the opponent a visual cue that the move is coming... basically fast enough that if you "just frame" block, you can block it.

 

[Killphil]

I like the idea. The concept of holding a button down isn't lost on mk. Liu kangs original input for the bicycle kick was holding a kick button down for a period of time and then letting it go. Reo has a point. When facing characters like Reptile or Kabal, its not so much the move itself (elbow dash, nomad dash) that becomes the problem but the THREAT of the move. Moves like those cause hesitation, and hesitation is what gets you losses.

 

[9.95]

Some of you aren't understanding the reason as to why it should be a charge move. If it's not a charge move then you have to deal with a character who has a 10-frame full-screen special attack at any given moment in the match. This means you are going to spend the entire match blocking in fear of said attack. Any time you leave the ground to jump or attempt a cross-up, BOOM, spun. Any time you whiff something or have a punishable move blocked, BOOM, spun. The Flash will be pressuring you with access to all of his attacks and strings, and anytime you hesitate or defend wrong, BOOM, spun.

Now, if it's a charge attack, you won't have to deal with half of the things mentioned above because the player will have to be more wise on how they go about things. If they have a bunch of rush down and mix-ups options that are assigned to or , then they will not be able to use them if they're buffering for spin. If they want to anti-air or punish something heavily, then they will need to charge ahead of time and make better adjusted reads. You, as the opponent can also capitalize on them charging, and this will cause some-what of a time period when The Flash is vulnerable and you can be more risky.

This will also totally take away the threat of dash cancel pressure... not to bad of an idea...

 

[Deadly Torcher]

What 9.95 said in his 1st post seems fair.

 

[BillStickers]

Some of you aren't understanding the reason as to why it should be a charge move. If it's not a charge move then you have to deal with a character who has a 10-frame full-screen special attack at any given moment in the match. This means you are going to spend the entire match blocking in fear of said attack. Any time you leave the ground to jump or attempt a cross-up, BOOM, spun. Any time you whiff something or have a punishable move blocked, BOOM, spun. The Flash will be pressuring you with access to all of his attacks and strings, and anytime you hesitate or defend wrong, BOOM, spun.

Now, if it's a charge attack, you won't have to deal with half of the things mentioned above because the player will have to be more wise on how they go about things. If they have a bunch of rush down and mix-ups options that are assigned to or , then they will not be able to use them if they're buffering for spin. If they want to anti-air or punish something heavily, then they will need to charge ahead of time and make better adjusted reads. You, as the opponent can also capitalize on them charging, and this will cause some-what of a time period when The Flash is vulnerable and you can be more risky.

I want to print this out and frame it. Your meta-trolling is truly an artform.

 

[Skitzo]

How about when you charge the dash, it's unblockable?