NKZero's Sub Zero Match-Up Chart

[NKZero]

Well having looked at Mr. Mileena match-up chart for Kitana, I decided to do one of my own, taking into full consideration that integers are the best way to go about the thing. Having .5 match-ups just makes it more confusing than it should be. So this is how I will go about it:

5-5=even (5.5-4.5 that is closer to even will become 5-5)
6-4=slight advantage (5.5-4.5 that is closer to slight advantage will become 6-4)
7-3=considerable advantage (I think that is as high as you get really)

anyways without further ado...

Baraka: 6-4
Cyber Sub Zero: 7-3
Cyrax: 5-5
Ermac: 5-5
Freddy: 4-6
Jade: 5-5
Jax: 4-6
Johnny Cage: 6-4
Kabal: 4-6
Kano: 6-4
Kenshi: 3-7
Kitana: 4-6
Kung Lao: 4-6
Liu Kang: 5-5
Mileena: 5-5
Nightwolf: 5-5
Noob Saibot: 5-5
Quan Chi: 6-4
Raiden: 4-6
Rain: 5-5
Reptile: 6-4
Scorpion: 6-4
Sektor: 5-5
Shang Tsung: 5-5
Sheeva: 6-4
Sindel: 4-6
Skarlet: 5-5
Smoke: 4-6
Sonya: 5-5
Stryker: 6-4

TOTAL: 150/300

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Raiden... 5-5
Scorpion is .... well I think its in Subs favor
I also think NW is in SZ favor.
Rain is in SZ's favor.
Kabal is a 3-7

Just my opinion though. Take it or leave it.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Raiden... 5-5
Scorpion is .... well I think its in Subs favor
I also think NW is in SZ favor.
Rain is in SZ's favor.
Kabal is a 3-7

Just my opinion though. Take it or leave it.

Adding to this, I think

Smoke = 5-5
Skarlet = 4-6

and the only one I don't agree with you is Rain. I think it's 5-5.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Baraka is not a 6-4, I do not know how to explain this better.

If Baraka has meter, than the match is in his favor. Sub cannot hide behind the ice clone without just sitting their blocking, while Baraka throws blade sparks to build meter(notice this is not up close to the ice clone). If Sub decides to try and ice ball, Baraka can EX blade charge and push Sub towards the corner. HOWEVER without meter Baraka is forced to crouch block in front of the clone and wait for it to disappear or the sub player to come to him. This allows the Sub player to build meter and get chip damage, but NOTHING ELSE. Up close Baraka's frametraps and blockstrings can be really troublesome for Raka, but Sub has some troublesome strings as well. Baraka can keep Sub at a good range with D4, but has to respect the fact that Sub can ice clone. Baraka does build WAY more meter way faster than sub does, as one blockstring canceled into slices leaves me neutral on block(meaning the worst you could do is poke) and gaining half a bar of meter. In the corner Sub is really good, but so is Baraka. Damage wise they are about the same except Baraka can end with a F4 which leads into frametraps, while Sub cannot reset baraka.

This is at worst a 5.5-4.5 for Sub, if not using .5s then for sure a 5-5.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Baraka is not a 6-4, I do not know how to explain this better.

If Baraka has meter, than the match is in his favor. Sub cannot hide behind the ice clone without just sitting their blocking, while Baraka throws blade sparks to build meter(notice this is not up close to the ice clone). If Sub decides to try and ice ball, Baraka can EX blade charge and push Sub towards the corner. HOWEVER without meter Baraka is forced to crouch block in front of the clone and wait for it to disappear or the sub player to come to him. This allows the Sub player to build meter and get chip damage, but NOTHING ELSE. Up close Baraka's frametraps and blockstrings can be really troublesome for Raka, but Sub has some troublesome strings as well. Baraka can keep Sub at a good range with D4, but has to respect the fact that Sub can ice clone. Baraka does build WAY more meter way faster than sub does, as one blockstring canceled into slices leaves me neutral on block(meaning the worst you could do is poke) and gaining half a bar of meter. In the corner Sub is really good, but so is Baraka. Damage wise they are about the same except Baraka can end with a F4 which leads into frametraps, while Sub cannot reset baraka.

This is at worst a 5.5-4.5 for Sub, if not using .5s then for sure a 5-5.

I have NO reason to clone and sit there. This only works AFTER I have established a good life lead. Why would on earth would I do this to begin a match? Baraka's strings give me no fear. His blade charge is punishable by slide if you don't space it. as is the spark move.
The way you spell this out.... the SZ player has NO idea how to approach Baraka.....

Baraka .... is a slower Johnny Cage. In almost every way. Armored advancing attack (granted baraka's is safe?) and frame traps when close that reset the situation. His strings do allow him to go neutral.... but in the end that isn't enough. Once you go through a block string... you're done. My d4 is better... my standing 2 is better. My options are better after I block your stuff. Even off of 211+2.... where you are heavily + frames.... all of your followups outside of specials and pokes will lose to standing 2. and spin loses to d4.

HOWEVER.... I do appreciate you showing and explaining how Baraka can approach SZ a little bit.

 

[Death]

Baraka beating sub lol. Thats funny

 

[Zoidberg747]

Baraka beating sub lol. Thats funny

I have always thought it was 5-5, FYI. Never said anything about BEATING him.

I have NO reason to clone and sit there. This only works AFTER I have established a good life lead. Why would on earth would I do this to begin a match? Baraka's strings give me no fear. His blade charge is punishable by slide if you don't space it. as is the spark move.
The way you spell this out.... the SZ player has NO idea how to approach Baraka.....

Baraka .... is a slower Johnny Cage. In almost every way. Armored advancing attack (granted baraka's is safe?) and frame traps when close that reset the situation. His strings do allow him to go neutral.... but in the end that isn't enough. Once you go through a block string... you're done. My d4 is better... my standing 2 is better. My options are better after I block your stuff. Even off of 211+2.... where you are heavily + frames.... all of your followups outside of specials and pokes will lose to standing 2. and spin loses to d4.

HOWEVER.... I do appreciate you showing and explaining how Baraka can approach SZ a little bit.

The first rule of offline play is not to blade charge unless it is a punish. Baraka players get blown up offline for that. Spark is the same thing. Like I said once I go through a blockstring into slices I am neutral and it may be over. But I now have most likely a full bar of meter, so that gives a good advantage when I obtain the life lead. EX Blade charge is -13 on block from fullscreen, so again I will only do that RIGHT when you clone or ice ball.

Once I go through a blockstring though you cannot D4 or else my D3 will hit(7 frames vs. 8 frames) so you basically can d3 to get me out of my pressure. But if I just duck block your poke attempt you are at about 8 frames of disadvantage, and that gives me time to D3. Off of a couple of those I can get my pressure going again.

Sub players love to throw out the "My D4 is better than yours" card. Let me give you guys some data:
Baraka's D4: +13 on hit, neutral on block, 12 frames, Better range than Sub's
Sub's D4: +8 on hit, neutral on block, 8 frames, shorter range

So yes, yours comes out four frames faster. The problem is I can do it far away enough that you cannot do much after it is blocked. If it hits I get a huge advantage, and I can get another poke, slices, or F4. If you block the F4 my pressure is over and you can punish with a poke, if it hits though I have free frametraps. The slices builds me meter, and the pokes set me up for the other two.



On to what I have after 2,2 1+2, I can automatically cancel into slices so I am neutral. You will get hit if you try to 2 during that. If you block it I have a bar of meter. Baraka builds a lot of meter, which makes you go on the offensive where I can play my footsies game that I excel at.

That ALL depends on who has the life lead and who gets the first hit, that is where I usually get the 5-5 from. I could honestly see 5.5-4.5 for Sub, but it definitely is more towards the 5-5 range.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

The thing is... how do you get your offense going? All that theory fighter stuff is great for trying to beat me on paper. But in a real match... how do you get that stuff going? JiP? no. You character is BAD in the neutral game. My d4 is MUCH better in that aspect. My 2,2 is better than EVERYTHING you have in the neutral game.

Quit theory fighting me.... and just look at how you would approach this matchup.

I could sit here and theory fight you all day... but I'm not. I'm simply saying you have to look at the matchup as if were actually being played... not "I can counter this with this and this...." Because it doesn't work that way.

 

[NKZero]

Raiden... 5-5
Scorpion is .... well I think its in Subs favor
I also think NW is in SZ favor.
Rain is in SZ's favor.
Kabal is a 3-7

Just my opinion though. Take it or leave it.

why why why why and why?

I think Scorpion puts Sub Zero on edge because of the hellfire spear mix-up (I know that applies to everyone) but it hurst Sub Zero when he doesn't have the best mobility. EX Spear will also save Scorpion in this match. I understand why you think it's advantage Sub but it's closer to even from a 5.5-4.5 match than it is towards a 6-4, hence I labelled it even.

NW doesn't even need to approach Sub Zero. Sub can't go around throwing ice balls. If Nightwolf maintains the correct spacing, ice clone is useless, then there's always lightning to worry about. It's basically a patience game. 5-5.

Rain I don't know much about but I would think that lightning gives Sub Zero some worries, plus the armour you always have to consider. Rain can get out of situations that other characters cannot.

Kabal I feel that once you back him into a corner you have hope tbh. I don't think it's as bad as that Kenshi bastard.

 

[NKZero]

Adding to this, I think

Smoke = 5-5
Skarlet = 4-6

and the only one I don't agree with you is Rain. I think it's 5-5.

Skarlet I don't know much about so why dyou think that?

Also I treat Smoke and Raiden as similar characters. Turtlers who can easily establish a life lead and run away with it. They do it better than Sub and they basically play like Kitana would against Sub Zero. Sub cannot trap either of them but his saving grace is the clone midscreen (especially against Raiden). Still the mindgames belong to those characters.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

why why why why and why?

I think Scorpion puts Sub Zero on edge because of the hellfire spear mix-up (I know that applies to everyone) but it hurst Sub Zero when he doesn't have the best mobility. EX Spear will also save Scorpion in this match. I understand why you think it's advantage Sub but it's closer to even from a 5.5-4.5 match than it is towards a 6-4, hence I labelled it even.

NW doesn't even need to approach Sub Zero. Sub can't go around throwing ice balls. If Nightwolf maintains the correct spacing, ice clone is useless, then there's always lightning to worry about. It's basically a patience game. 5-5.

Rain I don't know much about but I would think that lightning gives Sub Zero some worries, plus the armour you always have to consider. Rain can get out of situations that other characters cannot.

Kabal I feel that once you back him into a corner you have hope tbh. I don't think it's as bad as that Kenshi bastard.

Scorpion has horrible footsie compared to SZ. So in a neutral game... he is effed. He literally has NO safe way to start his offense. Ex tele is stuffed by d4~freeze. Sure i'll eat a few hellfires so I can approach.... no big deal.

NW has to touch SZ some how. He can't just stand there and do nothing... because slide beats all of his specials. Arrow, lightening and even shoulder. OS clone kills NW btw. From what i've used of it at least. D4 makes it VERY hard on NW in the neutral game as well. 2,2 out reaches most of NW normals. You can always block low or even just duck NW and punish most of his stuff to approach you.

Rain can't do much with his RH cancels nor can he safely get his offense going at all. His teleport is basically a free combo for SZ. Gyser kick is punishable and 4,3 RH cancel gives SZ enough time to clone. I also am starting to think OS clone can give Rain problems as well.

Kabal will have at least a bar in the corner.... at that point he still controls what is going to happen. The MU is a 7-3 for sure. Too many things Kabal can do to stay out of the corner.... as well as get out of the corner.

Skarlet is a 5-5. Neither character really has an advantage over the other. She has her armor... but how does she keep that meter? She trades with Sub at full screen with daggers.... her air dagger can be frozen. To add ... they do like 2% damage.... making it not so hard to eat a few to get in a better position. Her armor is a problem, but everything can be fuzzy guarded and the tides turn back. She is negative off a "quick" slide and her upslash/downslash are full combo punishable.
The thing here is that the character that has the life lead has huge control in the match. Skarlet can apply great pressure... but if you are used to her strings... you can poke out and punish certain things.


These are very muddled down reasons.... and I don't base them off of theory fighting... but actually have fought these match ups with GREAT players. You can't "theory fight" MU's.

 

[NKZero]

Scorpion has horrible footsie compared to SZ. So in a neutral game... he is effed. He literally has NO safe way to start his offense. Ex tele is stuffed by d4~freeze. Sure i'll eat a few hellfires so I can approach.... no big deal.

NW has to touch SZ some how. He can't just stand there and do nothing... because slide beats all of his specials. Arrow, lightening and even shoulder. OS clone kills NW btw. From what i've used of it at least. D4 makes it VERY hard on NW in the neutral game as well. 2,2 out reaches most of NW normals. You can always block low or even just duck NW and punish most of his stuff to approach you.

Rain can't do much with his RH cancels nor can he safely get his offense going at all. His teleport is basically a free combo for SZ. Gyser kick is punishable and 4,3 RH cancel gives SZ enough time to clone. I also am starting to think OS clone can give Rain problems as well.

Kabal will have at least a bar in the corner.... at that point he still controls what is going to happen. The MU is a 7-3 for sure. Too many things Kabal can do to stay out of the corner.... as well as get out of the corner.

Skarlet is a 5-5. Neither character really has an advantage over the other. She has her armor... but how does she keep that meter? She trades with Sub at full screen with daggers.... her air dagger can be frozen. To add ... they do like 2% damage.... making it not so hard to eat a few to get in a better position. Her armor is a problem, but everything can be fuzzy guarded and the tides turn back. She is negative off a "quick" slide and her upslash/downslash are full combo punishable.
The thing here is that the character that has the life lead has huge control in the match. Skarlet can apply great pressure... but if you are used to her strings... you can poke out and punish certain things.


These are very muddled down reasons.... and I don't base them off of theory fighting... but actually have fought these match ups with GREAT players. You can't "theory fight" MU's.

You could be right about Rain. I already had Skarlet at 5-5 anyways.

As for Nightwolf he doesn't have to touch Sub Zero. He has greater tools at a further distance than Sub Zero does. Throwing ice balls up close is suicide and shoulder/EX shoulder can get him in. He keeps Sub on edge the same way Scorpion does but he does it better and safer. Now that I think about it you are right about Sub Zero beating Scorpion.

Kabal isn't horribly bad. I had it as a 6.3-3.5 but it doesn't merit being his worst match-up. Kenshi is another level of problems so I had to dumb down the Kabal match a bit.

Anyways BookBurning what d'you think? REO for the Kabal match? L0rdoftheFLY for Nightwolf or Big D?

 

[BookBurning]

Sub_Crash4 NKZero

Rain vs Sub is a 5-5. 43 RHC and 4 RHC leave Rain at +2 frame advantage on block; he can't clone between them without his clone busting completely. Hell Rain's D4 RHC is +3 on block even. Rain can armored dash through clones and Subs offense and consistently check him with lightning, stuffing clones and iceballs alike. Sub can go into defensive mode but who cares? All he can do is chuck ice balls (Big deal) and has to come to you eventually. If he has the life lead and runs away then just be patient and push towards him, Rain wins the up-close offensive battle. Teleport is fine, if you randomly use it then of course you deserved to get punished, use it wisely.

Sorry Sub_crash but the Rain players you've probably been playing have no idea how to play Rain vs Sub-Zero. It's not a 6-4. Truthfully I didn't play the matchup correctly either in the past. You just have to be more patient as Rain, but it's not that bad at all.

 

[NKZero]

Sub_Crash4 NKZero

Rain vs Sub is a 5-5. 43 RHC and 4 RHC leave Rain at +2 frame advantage on block; he can't clone between them without his clone busting completely. Hell Rain's D4 RHC is +3 on block even. Rain can armored dash through clones and Subs offense and consistently check him with lightning, stuffing clones and iceballs alike. Sub can go into defensive mode but who cares? All he can do is chuck ice balls (Big deal) and has to come to you eventually. If he has the life lead and runs away then just be patient and push towards him, Rain wins the up-close offensive battle. Teleport is fine, if you randomly use it then of course you deserved to get punished, use it wisely.

Sorry Sub_crash but the Rain players you've probably been playing have no idea how to play Rain vs Sub-Zero. It's not a 6-4. Truthfully I didn't play the matchup correctly either in the past. You just have to be more patient as Rain, but it's not that bad at all.

I was thinking Rain had the tools to keep Sub Zero worried about clones, ice balls etc. The armour really helps as well. It's like Sub Zero cannot trap Rain as well as he can other characters.

 

[Peckapowa]

raiden beats subs, he tps out of most of his strings and even after a d4 on hit if he tries to follow up, he makes sub come to him, he can teleport an ice clone on prediction for a full punish, he can superman out of the corner, he can instant air superman over an ice ball or into sub over a clone and still hit nad sub cant really throw too many ice balls and raidens back 3 whiff punishes everything sub has.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Skarlet I don't know much about so why dyou think that?

Also I treat Smoke and Raiden as similar characters. Turtlers who can easily establish a life lead and run away with it. They do it better than Sub and they basically play like Kitana would against Sub Zero. Sub cannot trap either of them but his saving grace is the clone midscreen (especially against Raiden). Still the mindgames belong to those characters.

armor out the ass...

one predicted clone and you're eating combos into resets all day. lol

 

[ChaosTheory]

As for Nightwolf he doesn't have to touch Sub Zero. He has greater tools at a further distance than Sub Zero does. Throwing ice balls up close is suicide and shoulder/EX shoulder can get him in. He keeps Sub on edge the same way Scorpion does but he does it better and safer.

I'm not sure how you figure that Nightwolf doesn't have to touch Sub-Zero. Nightwolf's tools aren't doing much to keep Sub-Zero at distance. Arrow isn't much of a threat, anyway, but Sub-Zero can Slide it to boot. Lightning and Shoulder Charge will get Nightwolf fucked if he's any kind of liberal with them. Sub can jump forward, land just outside a full dash's distance, dash in, and full combo punish (that's a lot of ground). Same for Shoulder: both versions eat a full combo. Which is why I don't understand why you mention Shoulder being a notable way for him to get in.

From my experience, I don't feel like Nightwolf keeps Sub-Zero on edge. Sub puts him right to wall every match.

raiden beats subs, he tps out of most of his strings and even after a d4 on hit if he tries to follow up, he makes sub come to him, he can teleport an ice clone on prediction for a full punish, he can superman out of the corner, he can instant air superman over an ice ball or into sub over a clone and still hit nad sub cant really throw too many ice balls and raidens back 3 whiff punishes everything sub has.

As far as Sub's strings go, Raiden can Teleport the 2,1,2 string and slam Sub. There's a few characters like that where Sub can't freely use 2,1,2 regardless of their meter, but it's not that big a deal. CSZ's Ice Parry basically does the same thing and Sub-Zero crushes him. Sub can simply establish 2,1,4 in any situation he'd go for 2,1,2. Hit-confirming is close to the same and mid-screen damage output is only 3% less. And the fact that the opponent will eat 14% every time they try to interrupt is enough of a deterrence for them to stop trying. So really, 2,1,2 ends up not being eliminated from those match-ups.

That said, this being mainly a mid-screen match-up: Sub's generally better off using 2,2 (4) unless it's following up a b1,2,1 (in my preference). It's not easy to whiff punish 2,2 with Raiden's b3 if that situation presents.

I think both characters are fully capable in this match-up. It's a legitimate 5-5.

 

[NKZero]

I'm not sure how you figure that Nightwolf doesn't have to touch Sub-Zero. Nightwolf's tools aren't doing much to keep Sub-Zero at distance. Arrow isn't much of a threat, anyway, but Sub-Zero can Slide it to boot. Lightning and Shoulder Charge will get Nightwolf fucked if he's any kind of liberal with them. Sub can jump forward, land just outside a full dash's distance, dash in, and full combo punish (that's a lot of ground). Same for Shoulder: both versions eat a full combo. Which is why I don't understand why you mention Shoulder being a notable way for him to get in.

From my experience, I don't feel like Nightwolf keeps Sub-Zero on edge. Sub puts him right to wall every match.





As far as Sub's strings go, Raiden can Teleport the 2,1,2 string and slam Sub. There's a few characters like that where Sub can't freely use 2,1,2 regardless of their meter, but it's not that big a deal. CSZ's Ice Parry basically does the same thing and Sub-Zero crushes him. Sub can simply establish 2,1,4 in any situation he'd go for 2,1,2. Hit-confirming is close to the same and mid-screen damage output is only 3% less. And the fact that the opponent will eat 14% every time they try to interrupt is enough of a deterrence for them to stop trying. So really, 2,1,2 ends up not being eliminated from those match-ups.

That said, this being mainly a mid-screen match-up: Sub's generally better off using 2,2 (4) unless it's following up a b1,2,1 (in my preference). It's not easy to whiff punish 2,2 with Raiden's b3 if that situation presents.

I think both characters are fully capable in this match-up. It's a legitimate 5-5.

the only way you are cornering him is with a clone and as soon as that clone is set I'll just blaze through it with EX shoulder. axe swing is somewhat of a live saver vs any of Sub Zero's low pokes. Max range D4 may present a bit of a problem and you can't do it on autopilot with the threat of lightning being there. it's basically sub zero vs sub zero in that it comes down to a timeout and a life lead. nightwolf has the armour and the tools to escape Sub's traps but if he abuses anything somewhat risky, Sub will punish.

 

[Zoidberg747]

The thing is... how do you get your offense going? All that theory fighter stuff is great for trying to beat me on paper. But in a real match... how do you get that stuff going? JiP? no. You character is BAD in the neutral game. My d4 is MUCH better in that aspect. My 2,2 is better than EVERYTHING you have in the neutral game.

Quit theory fighting me.... and just look at how you would approach this matchup.

I could sit here and theory fight you all day... but I'm not. I'm simply saying you have to look at the matchup as if were actually being played... not "I can counter this with this and this...." Because it doesn't work that way.

Off of a D4 or D3. My character is not BAD in the neutral game, he has a 7 frame poke that can be canceled into slices or blade spin to force you to poke out. There are gaps in slices but with blade spin unless you are already neutral ducking you will be hit, I will gain meter and still be neutral. I have played the matchup before but it has been a long time. I do look at the matchup as if it were being played, that is why I say what options I can stop from you and what options you can stop from me. If I have the life lead I can stop you from ice cloning and playing footsies, and I can force you to try and apply pressure which I can poke out of into offense.

If you have the life lead then you can clone and I am forced to duck block and take any chip and iceballs and hope you mess up. So really and truly it comes down to whoever has the life lead and first hit, I really hope I dont have to play the matchup anytime soon because in all honesty it is boring as hell lol.

1man3letters might be able to explain the matchup better, but I still think it is 5-5.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Nw sub is interesting. I used to think it was nw favor but now I'm inclined to say its even.

Mid screen nw can take damage. He makes it hard for sub to get him in the corner. That said, once he is in the corner(which is inevitable) its very hard to get out.

With nw I would save meter for ex shoulder specifically for corner situations. I would end my combos with choke in order to stay close to sub. When I'm close he is forced to wakeup clone after choke which opens up lightning or if he respects lightning opens up pressure.

5-5. No blaring advantages other than
Mid screen for nw
Corner for sub

 

[NKZero]

Nw sub is interesting. I used to think it was nw favor but now I'm inclined to say its even.

Mid screen nw can take damage. He makes it hard for sub to get him in the corner. That said, once he is in the corner(which is inevitable) its very hard to get out.

With nw I would save meter for ex shoulder specifically for corner situations. I would end my combos with choke in order to stay close to sub. When I'm close he is forced to wakeup clone after choke which opens up lightning or if he respects lightning opens up pressure.

5-5. No blaring advantages other than
Mid screen for nw
Corner for sub

What d'you do versus max range Sub D4? I believe Sub and Kitana are the only characters with low pokes that truly negate Nightwolf's F3...

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

What d'you do versus max range Sub D4? I believe Sub and Kitana are the only characters with low pokes that truly negate Nightwolf's F3...

Kits does but subs doesn't. A well placed f3 can stuff it. Also it takes 3%. One cross over jump kick to shoulder is 15%. Or if they block the kick I get free pressure or a throw.

No big deal.

 

[ChaosTheory]

I think you're overestimating EH Shoulder. It's not like it's an automatic blow-up for Clone, especially if you're smart about placing Ice. He can work it in the same way he would against Cage, Jax, etc. And a naked Clone isn't his only way to push. Even if he does get popped with EH Shoulder... what's the situation? Sub's back to pressing towards the wall and Nightwolf is short a bar of meter. And that meter is kind of difficult to rebuild since it's tough for him to get in on Sub and he has to be careful with his specials.

I don't think Nightwolf gets murdered, but I think it's a tough match against a smart, patient Sub-Zero.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

If they bait a jump and clone..Lightning is free (if read right). And that's 32%.

 

[NKZero]

Kits does but subs doesn't. A well placed f3 can stuff it. Also it takes 3%. One cross over jump kick to shoulder is 15%. Or if they block the kick I get free pressure or a throw.

No big deal.

Surely an 8 frame D4 with similar range to a 6 frame D1 would present the same problems no? The way I think about it, that Nightwolf 114 on block followed by F3 will beat out any D4 apart from Sub's D4 and Kit's D1. Even if a D4 is 1 frame quicker than F3, F3 still wins because of its great priority. I say 1 frame quicker because you are at -2 after 114 so F3 in essence becomes a 13 frame attack vs a 12 frame D4 (which is typically the start-up number).