Match-up Discussion CptXecution's Sub-Zero MU Chart

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

How are you faring against them? i cant seem to take many rounds from Glue the 2 times i faced him...

And KL is by far the MU i feel most disadvantaged...

as you should. A good KL will make the clone useless... even when its on the field. He can make bad reads and still be rewarded.

You have to play a perfect match... and hope for a mistake or two from KL.

Whoever asked about the OS clone. It stands for Option Select... basically meaning they have found a way to do clone or *i'm guessing* Ice ball without any guessing.

 

[salvificblood]

How are you faring against them? i cant seem to take many rounds from Glue the 2 times i faced him...

And KL is by far the MU i feel most disadvantaged...

To be honest, they all play differently with kung Lao. Glue tends to be incredibly methodical and will usually end the match with an xray combo. He's very technical and footsies based with Lao, so taking rounds is usually not an issue, it's taking rounds while staying on equal terms in the meter race. Once Kung lao has Xray, there's very little Sub can do, and Jay exploits that to the fullest. Foxy is super aggressive and is very difficult to contain. Omega was also playing really well with Kung lao when I last played him. He still makes more mistakes than the other two with him, so it's a bit easier for me to win by punishing mistakes, but it's still a hard matchup. I can beat a really good Kung lao, it's just very difficult and especially difficult against Foxy's Kung lao because he's way, way ahead of me, that's for sure. Jay is too, and I am sure Omega will keep improving his kung lao if he sticks with him. He beats me with him now, so...

I just feel more comfortable dealing with Lao's mobility and pressure now. the only thing is, the ex tele whiffed grab for extended armour is a new problem to work out. On the one hand, I hope Kung lao's do spend their meter on that rather than building up Xray and completely shutting my options down, on the hand, it's pretty nasty because you can't always get out by just jumping back and so you end up getting caught in lots of pressure or just getting combod for pressing buttons (which I can never seem to resist).

 

[CptXecution]

D

Dark Rob. You gotta explain what OS clones means ???

He doesn't have to explain anything, it's Tom's tech and he will reveal it when the time comes. This thread is not about the OS clone so please stop asking about it, that goes for everyone.

I think Kung Lao is a 4-6 rather than a 3-7 (I've been getting better at that matchups since playing Foxy's, Glue's and Omega's Kung lao). I think Jax is a 4-6, too. He just has too many ways to control the fight. from fullscreen to close range, he's too much to handle especially since we can't reliably pressure him when we do get in. Even if you land a point blank d4, you aren't guaranteed 21 or 22 pressure because of exos. Bs character, lol.

Yeah I don't have enough consistent Lao MU experience and hope I do in the near future. Plus I made the 4.5-5.5 Jax MU because Jax is one of the few top tier characters that struggle a bit to get out of the corner against Sub without taking a risk. EX Dash Punch ducked and punished as well as EX OS...a well timed whiff punish is good. Like I said I hope I make it out to VSM VERY soon so I can get this experience against people like CD jr, Riu48 etc.

Skarlet is a 5-5. She doesn't have the advantage in that matchup.

then again ... all this does is create animosity. Especially since ... well there is only one SZ who knows all his tools

Have you played Ninj yet? You'll know what I'm talking about. Like I said in the OP as well this is MY opinion on some of them and I'm looking for the community's opinion as well as giving the Sub community a sneak peak into what they voted me for which I'm very appreciative for.

Agreed. Noobs lack of damage,especially midscreen just don't make his right guesses pay off for him enough. Sub can guess wrong 3 or 4 times and then guess right and make it all back and then some. Noob gets penalized alot harder for guessing wrong then Sub does. But Noob is still always throwing stuff at Sub so it is Sub that has to thread the needle to get in. But Sub can botch it a few times before he needs to worry. 5-5.

I agree with everything you said but Sub also makes Noob afraid of waking up with ANY kind of clone because the right read and he'll be frozen again and Sub is in after a b121. Ice ball stuffs any clone wake up attack so he has to take even bigger risks with a teleport. Noob players like to wake up with up knee a lot and Sub has the perfect counter to that.

 

[Enenra]

I respect your opinion, but I agree more with Tom's chart.

Props nonetheless man.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Yes i've played Ninj.... i've played just about all the Skarlets. I posted a rough thing about her in the MU discussion.
I doubt you've played gr8one's Skarlet... which is an entirely different style than what Ninj brings to the table. Just for reference.

 

[CptXecution]

Yes i've played Ninj.... i've played just about all the Skarlets. I posted a rough thing about her in the MU discussion.
I doubt you've played gr8one's Skarlet... which is an entirely different style than what Ninj brings to the table. Just for reference.

gr8one also has a different style of character for every character he plays. I've also played blueNINE's Skarlet but playing Ninj has lead me to believe this MU is 4-6. Skarlet is too mobile and can zone Sub extremely well. It didn't go from 8-2 to 5-5 just because her dagger cancels got nerfed...she's still highly under rated.

 

[NKZero]

5-5 Cyrax
4-6 Jax
4-6 Kung Lao
4.5-5.5 Raiden
5-5 Shang Tsung
5-5 Smoke

I agree with the rest...

 

[DeathTouch]

He doesn't have to explain anything, it's Tom's tech and he will reveal it when the time comes. This thread is not about the OS clone so please stop asking about it, that goes for everyone.
Wow easy CptXecution. Im just curious and cant wait to see this ( new tech) in time.
Im just like you trying to help around and being open for sub zero's new setups and so forth. Peace man

 

[DeathTouch]

By the way I agree most of your MU chart. Good stuff man

 

[CptXecution]

5-5 Cyrax
4-6 Jax
4-6 Kung Lao
4.5-5.5 Raiden
5-5 Shang Tsung
5-5 Smoke

I agree with the rest...

Yeah Cyrax would be 5-5 without his resets but you're bound to get in a net once in a set, you're human it's gonna happen lol. Kung Lao I've changed since hearing everyone in this thread and rethinking it. Jax I actually have offline experience with, with my buddy Habity who's style is a lot like CD jr's and Sub's corner game works well against him even with armor because both moves are easily punishable not to mention making him waste that bar (which is one less for him to reset you in the corner with). Shang I need more experience with, I just haven't played enough of Wound online but I haven't had much success. And Smoke....anyone who can lame out Sub and run away with ease plus his resets/throw mix ups...I just feel it's too hard and most agree with that.

Thanks for your input.

 

[NKZero]

Yeah Cyrax would be 5-5 without his resets but you're bound to get in a net once in a set, you're human it's gonna happen lol. Kung Lao I've changed since hearing everyone in this thread and rethinking it. Jax I actually have offline experience with, with my buddy Habity who's style is a lot like CD jr's and Sub's corner game works well against him even with armor because both moves are easily punishable not to mention making him waste that bar (which is one less for him to reset you in the corner with). Shang I need more experience with, I just haven't played enough of Wound online but I haven't had much success. And Smoke....anyone who can lame out Sub and run away with ease plus his resets/throw mix ups...I just feel it's too hard and most agree with that.

Thanks for your input.

you're welcome sir. actually come to think of it Smoke may be tougher yeah so perhaps 6-4 Smoke. Shang is 5-5 because Sub Zero up close is too much for Shang. Plus if you space well you can bait the wrong ground skull and punish with ice ball. Jax just makes Sub Zero uncomfortable in terms of ground control so that is always a big issue and he outzones him but it isn't groundbreaking difficult hence the 4-6. If you say that it takes one net then surely that applies to every character? I don't think it is enough to really shift the balance in Cyrax's favour. Maximum 5.5-4.5 Cyrax but I maintain 5-5. I respect your opinion nonetheless.

 

[deathgun]

I think cyrax is 6-4 over sz, it would to be 5-5 w/o the 80% combos. Milena 6-4 over sz aswell, I cant see that matchup as 5-5 right now.

 

[CptXecution]

Nah Mileena is 5-5 especially with the new tech that Tom has shown us. I believe Death would agree 100%.

 

[Death]

Mileena vs Sub is 5-5.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Nah Mileena is 5-5 especially with the new tech that Tom has shown us. I believe Death would agree 100%.

Mileena was always a 5-5. the new tech just made her die in the corner instead of having some hope

 

[LUCKY0346]

I think Sonya and Cyrax are 5-5. Clone OS is really good against them. I think Kung Lao is 4-6. Sub has ways to make him stop teleporting. Its still in Laos favor but its not a total slaughter anymore.

like what? duck 212 for the instant 3? and 22 for the dropping 3?
i saw a vid where brady said that thats the way to punish kl's teleport
but it doesnt really works for me beacause its a guessing game where you must decide first 2 choose an option..
its really good damage but if you guess wrong you'll get blown up

do you have a better punish? i just backdash so i dont have 2 geuss

 

[Dark_Rob]

like what? duck 212 for the instant 3? and 22 for the dropping 3?
i saw a vid where brady said that thats the way to punish kl's teleport
but it doesnt really works for me beacause its a guessing game where you must decide first 2 choose an option..
its really good damage but if you guess wrong you'll get blown up

There is only one way you can get blown up and it has nothing to do with guessing. Yes deciding what your going to do when Kung lao teleports is a guess, but its a guess that works in Subzeros favor. First you have to remember that kung lao WANTS that delayed 3, because thats the one he gets a full combo from. All he gets from instant 3 is putting his boot in your face. So always start off by swinging for the fences with 2,2. His greediness for that full combo will instead get him full combo punished.

At some point he will tire of this and he will go to instant 3. Now even if you guess wrong here the worst your gonna eat is a boot to the face. You can block the follow up pressure afterwards. Without his pre patch low hat Kung Laos pressure isnt what it used to be. You may eat a throw here,but so what. What you really need to look out for is his crossovers. Its risky trying to NJP them because if you guess wrong and he doesnt jump, he spins and then its big trouble in little china, nevertheless sometimes you still have to take that chance. Lao has a natural mixup in his crossovers. If you stay crouch blocking to avoid the JK>teleport jail trap he can just do a JIP instead and he gets a full combo. If you high block to avoid getting JIPunched then he can do the JK>teleport jail. Its a big pain in the ass and honestly if I have a bar of meter I will usually just say fuck it and EX slide out of it all together. Whether he does JIK or JIP hes getting nailed. But I digress.

Getting back to punishing teleport basically you have one option that covers everyone of his teleport options except instant 3, which is 2,2. The only one 2,2 wont beat is instant 3. But thats ok because the worst you eat here is a boot to the face. Once he starts using instant 3 you can duck instant 3 and stand up and 2,1,2,ice blast him. So now you have a way to punish all his teleport options while not taking to much risk yourself.
The most important part of this is being able to visually recognize instant 3. This is the one place you can act wrong and get blown up if your not careful. Heres the scenario:
Kung Lao teleports, your read is that he will instant 3 so you duck and get ready to stand up and punish with 2,1,2. What you HAVE to watch for is to make sure you see that instant 3 come out. If you dont you MUST stay blocking. At this point delayed 3 will beat you if you try to stand up and punish and then you get full comboed. This is the hardest part of the mixup because you only have a split second to visually confirm whether instant 3 has come out or not. It will take some practice.

 

[Death]

The Mileena MU doesnt feel too good for Mileena. That MU "could" be in Subs favor. It felt tough after running that MU with Tom. Once Mileena is cornered is over. EX telekick is getting punished now by 27%. Sonya however is a good MU vs Sub and feels a bit better than Mileena.

 

[Dark_Rob]

The Mileena MU doesnt feel too good for Mileena. That MU "could" be in Subs favor. It felt tough after running that MU with Tom. Once Mileena is cornered is over. EX telekick is getting punished now by 27%. Sonya however is a good MU vs Sub and feels a bit better than Mileena.

Yea Toms come up with some good ways to punish Mileenas various telekick shenanigans, especially on wakeup. And that clone OS is a motherfucker isnt it? lol

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Yea Toms come up with some good ways to punish Mileenas various telekick shenanigans, especially on wakeup. And that clone OS is a motherfucker isnt it? lol

this makes me sad .

 

[Death]

The OS clone is really good vs Sonya. I think that MU is even.

 

[SunnyD]

Teasing isnt nice you know.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

IMO

Ermac, Nightwolf, and Smoke are all 5-5. Maybe Smoke being 4.5-5.5.

 

[SunnyD]

IMO

Ermac, Nightwolf, and Smoke are all 5-5. Maybe Smoke being 4.5-5.5.

Imo all the posts? lol

Ermac v Sub 5.5-4.5 as well. Force push does numbers on clone blockstrings, he can bait out clones and punish with iaB and force push. Ermac recovers well on projectile, enough to block a ice ball so you wont trade nearly as often. (ice ball travel fullscreen and projectile recovery are about the same). Basically Ermac has Sub beat long range. Up close....Sub's got faster strings and better mixups. Ermac has a good d3 and d1, but Sub's d4 is godlike. Ermac and Sub both have good AA's, neither should jump against each other. Sub has a better stagger string and better blockstrings. Blocked force push is a free slide. Up close Sub wins. Ermac punishes mistakes with huge combos and the F4 reset, but Sub can keep better pressure imo. Its a really close matchup, but i think theres advantage to Ermac.

And yes Sub_Crash4, i did read your posts in the Ermac discussion thread and i have considered what you said. There isnt a breaking strategy or tech that makes Ermac advantage over Sub, but its there.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I say IMO b/c I'm no expert at this game. lol

I don't think his ranged advantage is so terrible that he has the entire matchup advantage. He isn't as bad as say Noob, Sindel, or Kenshi with his ranged attacks (all of which I think are bad matchups for Sub... Kenshi being unwinnable).

You get in on Ermac and it's pretty much over.